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Nusa de Melo: Product Designer at Atticus

This episode of Digitally Diverse features Nusa de Melo, a Product Designer at Atticus. Nusa opens up about her journey from studying math at UC Berkeley to becoming a product designer at a legal tech startup in Australia. She talks about pivoting from sales to design, taking online courses, and landing her first product design role. Nusa discusses life as the only designer at Atticus, working on software that verifies legal documents, and why she finds the small startup environment more rewarding than big companies. She also shares how Atticus’s remote work policy allows her to live outside the city, and how she stays inspired through side projects, books, and podcasts. Tune in to hear Nusa’s thoughtful perspectives on math, design, startups, and carving your own path.


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Please note: this transcript has been auto-generated and may contain some errors. 

Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Digitally Diverse, where we do a deep dive into the influential designers and people in tech in the australian industry, we are lucky to be joined by Nusa DeMelo, who is a product designer at Atticus. Thank you so much for joining us, NuSa. Thanks for having me.

Thank you. So I would love to just do a bit of a deep dive into your background to get started. So can you tell us a little bit about you, where you’ve come from in your career to date? Yeah, so I’m currently a product designer, but before that I was in sales at a company called Mathspace, where I worked really closely with a product team there and got to really explore what it could look like to be a product designer and dive into the UX side of things.

And my background is in mathematics. I went to UC Berkeley back in California when I used to live there. And once I moved to Australia, I was really trying to figure out what I really wanted to do with my life, whether I wanted to continue in the math path or if I wanted to change.

But I have always had a deep interest into tech, and I’m a heavy tech user. Any new product that’s out there, I try to get my hands on and deep dive into it. So UX has always been a little bit a part of my life, and I explored a lot of the design world as well, but never tried to make a change or study very seriously until I got exposed to what it looks like in real life, which is kind of what I did.

I started studying on the side and learning and reading a lot of books until I couldn’t hold it anymore, and I was like, this is what I want to do. I want to make the jump and transition into this new career. So here at Adikus is the first official product design role that I jumping into.

So that’s really exciting. Yeah, I love that it’s something that you were interested and passionate about for a while before jumping into it, which it seems like so many people have a similar experience in, that they were working in another industry before starting in tech, I guess. What are you guys up to? Tell me about your current role at Atticus and what problems you were brought on to solve with them.

Yeah, so Atticus is a legal tech company. We build software for people that work in very regulated environments and need to verify documents, basically, so you can think about prospectuses, annual reports, investment investor presentations. So all of that needs to be verified to make sure that everything that’s being published is all correct.

And that’s what the software we built does. It helps with that process, which if you don’t have a software, that can be a very tiresome and long process, very stressful. So in a way, that’s basically what attracted me to Atticus, because there is a real problem and the product is solving that and there are real users and we can make meaningful impact in their lives as opposed to something that was more.

I don’t know. There are so many companies out there that I see doing products that are inventing a problem to solve. Quite frustrating as a designer.

So that was really a point that attracted me to join Atticus and be solving a real problem, basically, yeah. I mean, I can definitely say I am lucky enough or unlucky enough to be looking and buying a house at the moment. And we’ve already gone through a couple of legal bits and bobs before getting pipped at the post, unfortunately.

But the legal side of things and having all the contracts, especially as a newbie who’s never bought anything or done anything as big as that before, is super duper stressful. So that would be really helpful, having potentially a software that could run through things and kind of take the heavy lifting for those really data heavy contracts. And yeah, I think that’s a really important point that you made before as well.

It’s an actual, real problem that so many of us have to face. Everyone in their life is having to deal with contracts and some legal jargon that they’re maybe not familiar with. Yeah, I think it really sounds like a really cool platform and something that’s going to be making a lot of impact on a lot of users.

Yeah, and when I think about our users, a big majority of them are lawyers and they have to go through very long documents, think 400 pages, for example, having to do that, manually circling up sentences to verify, make sure that, okay, is this correct? Where is the evidence? I cannot imagine going through that myself. So having a product that helps with that is really rewarding to me. Working.

I bet. So, Nisa, what kind of projects are on the horizon for you folks at the moment? What are you currently working on? I have been really diving into icon design on the side, just a little bit of a pet project for myself. When I think about design, I’m really interested in all aspects of it.

The end to end process of designing a product, so that be it research or talking to users. And I think that the part that I need to really keep improving on, and it keeps changing all the time, is the visual part, because there is always a new trend and I feel like exploring icon design has been really good for me to get down to the roots of the UI design, of the side of product design. So there’s that.

And I’m also very excited to be starting a new coding course. Awesome. Something I explored a bit in the past, but I feel like I really want to have a good grasp of what is possible when you talk about UI design as opposed to just going crazy with creativity and not really thinking about the constraints.

And we all know coding is not a requirement if you want to be a designer. It’s just I’m interested, so that’s why I’m doing it. Yeah, I think that’s something that if any designer has the time, obviously it’s a really great thing just to get a really super basic knowledge in.

And you’re right. Knowing the constraints around your designs, I feel like the dev team would probably be very appreciative that you’re taking an interest in making their lives a little bit mean at the moment. In your current role, are you mostly working on the beginning of the design process, like that research and ux, and you’re wanting to branch out more into the UI or what does it look like for you in your role? Well, at the moment I dab in all aspects of design because up until now we just hired a new designer.

So up until now I was the only one. Oh, wow. Okay, cool.

Yeah. So you were like going solo? Yeah. And that meant I got to do everything and got to explore all aspects of design, which was really good.

And I feel like now with another designer coming on board, I’m going to be able to see what I want to focus on most. Maybe dab more into the UI, maybe more on the research. I’m not sure yet, but it has been really great to be able to do all parts of design from the whole process as opposed to just spending time on research, for example.

And as this is my first role, I feel like it’s a really good opportunity for me to understand all aspects of it and get to see what I like and what I thrive in. So that has been basically the focus. I do everything so good.

Yeah. There’s definitely a lot to say about being a solo designer. And you folks are pretty small at the moment, is that right? Yeah, we are growing since I joined.

I think we are tripled since I joined. Yeah. Which is incredible in small numbers.

I think we’re just below 30, so it’s a different dynamic, obviously, but it’s a challenging opportunity. I would say, because you get to do everything. But it’s also challenging when you are the only person and you don’t have another designer to talk to that you can share the specifics of the work.

Obviously you can have a mentor, but outside of work, it’s a different dynamic. Definitely. I’m really excited for new person that’s joining.

So are they more senior than you or are they more junior? Yeah, they’re more senior. Okay, cool. I’m going to be able to learn from them, which is really.

And that’s great, especially when you haven’t technically worked in product design before this current gig. How did you find going into a brand new role, first of all, but then also something that you haven’t really done that much before and then being the only person that would have been really steep learning curve. You’re braver than me.

Thanks for that. It was definitely. Yeah, there were some challenges, but I think one aspect of it that kept me going was I’m a very neat and organized person, and I think having that as my grounding rule was really good because just being able to organize my thoughts and think about, okay, so what’s the next step? What do I have to do for this feature that we’re working on? And the Internet is full of resources, so there is always a way to find something that you don’t know, and you don’t have to know everything before you go and jump and do something.

I had a foundation, I had a drive, and everyone was really supportive, so we did a very collaborative effort for every feature that we worked on. So it wasn’t just me, even though I was the only designer, it was teamwork. Yeah, that sounds like a really wholesome way of looking at it.

Like, not putting too much pressure on yourself to know everything before you even walk through the door. That would be definitely something that I would struggle with. What doesn’t mean I haven’t, but I try to keep that in mind.

Yeah. And it makes total sense that someone with a math brain would be very methodical and very logical about, like, step by step process problem solving, ticking the boxes methodically. There’s definitely something to be said about that.

I guess. Now that you guys are growing, what’s the culture like at Atticus? Like, you’ve obviously mentioned that you folks are very collaborative and love to help one another out. Is there anything else that you can share? Yeah, I think obviously, whenever more people join, there’s always change to the dynamic.

But the folks here are really intentional about who they hire because it’s not just about fitting in, but they think about who is going to join the team that’s going to be able to add on to the culture, which is really a nice thing to have. And since I joined everyone that has joined later, we have been able to work together and collaborate and the collaboration aspect of it keeps happening. So that’s really good for me because that’s something I value a lot.

I don’t like to work in silos and hence the reason why I even leaned towards a startup versus going to a big company, because I prefer to have that collaborative aspect and be able to reach someone directly if I need to, as opposed to going through hoops to my point across. And do you folks work remotely or what’s your setup there? Yeah, some of us are fully remote, like I am fully remote. And people who live in Melbourne, usually they go to the office because we do have a base there, but it’s completely friendly in that aspect.

We decide. And if I wanted to go to the office more often, if I lived in Melbourne, I could do that, but it wouldn’t be a requirement. That was an important point for me as well because I live in the sunny coast and I really like it here.

So it know one of the items on my checklist. Yeah, I’d get that. If good weather and warm weather are a priority to you.

There’s so many designers and people that work in tech who are based on the Gold Coast, Brisbane, Sunshine coast. And it’s really great to see that you are still supported in working for a really impact led business that typically you’d think, anything legal, you’d think, okay, maybe it’s going to be city based, probably Melbourne or Sydney. So it’s great that opportunity to have that remote first environment.

Work environment is still allowing you to do cool stuff, but not having to be in a particular place. Yeah, that’s really important. And it’s not just me.

We have people in the UK, people in Canada, so it’s a very distributed, you know, still small enough that we’re able to kind of test new processes and new ways of working remotely to make sure that everyone feels included. So yeah, that’s really nice to be a part of and see that happening. Yeah, no, that’s fantastic.

So, Noosa, you mentioned before that you have a background in mathematics, which is really cool. Can you tell me what university education or higher education did you take to get a background in that? So I actually went to university a little bit later than most people. I was already in my 30s when I decided to study math, I went to UC Berkeley.

Back in California, it was a very amazing experience, challenging, but also rewarding. But just before completing all of that, I decided to move to Australia with my partner. So that was a big change in my life, and it made me rethink everything, basically.

And so when people ask me, oh, would you go back and finish your degree maths, maybe. I wouldn’t say no. We never say never.

But I feel like that has given me a really strong foundation already in problem solving and understanding how to approach things. Though maybe if I had a chance to go back and go back to uni, if I decided to, I would probably focus on something more like design or coding to have more of that technical knowledge and background. What was the reason that you chose maths? Was there a particular catalyst? Well, it’s a very interesting question, because as a high school student, I used to hate maths and completely be afraid of it.

But it wasn’t until I decided to go and do a university course, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to study, but I just wanted to study something. And for so many courses, maths is a requirement, so you have to take some classes. And while I was taking those math classes, I just fell in love with it.

Seeing it through a different lens and being more mature as well also really helped to understand. Okay, so this is why you’re studying mathematics when you are in high school, people usually say, oh, you’re going to use this sometime in the future, or, this is important because of this and that. And it’s really hard to explain to a teenager that studying math will help your brain solve problems in any other area.

That’s not an acceptable answer for a teenager, but as an adult, that makes a lot of sense. And I even considered going to teaching because I really like sharing knowledge. But I think when I was thinking about the day to day work and what I really like to do, when things that you would do and you don’t see the time passing, that’s what I found in design, so that’s why I made a transition.

I love that. And design. At the end of the day, it sounds like what you loved about maths was the problem solving and getting into the weeds and really trying to figure something out.

And it sounds like design is a very natural progression of that into something a bit more creative, but also utilizing that problem solving. Yeah, it’s almost like math is the theory behind everything I do, and then I get creative design, which is really nice. Yeah, no, that’s awesome.

So I guess you did mention if you were to go back and do it again, you might focus something on a little bit more design focused. If someone was to come up to you and be like, Noosa, I really want to do what you’re doing. What kind of education pathway would you advise them to take on for that? Yeah, so maybe for context, I didn’t do any degree in design, so I didn’t go back to university to study design or anything.

I did all of that self taught. And so with that experience, what I would say to someone wanting to start fresh in this field would be to go online, take a course that’s free or cheap, something that you don’t have to spend too much time on or money, and just test it out and see if you like it. See if you like to learn about design and ux.

And if that’s a yes, then you can make a decision of whether I’m going to take the same path as news. I’m going to do self taught work and just learn by myself. Or if you prefer more structure when you’re learning things, then maybe you want to consider going to university or doing a short course to get that background and the foundation for it.

And then the other aspect of it is to just design something and test it out. Get an app that you really like, try to copy it and see if you like doing that. Because even though you may not be doing the visual design all the time, there’s so many different aspects of design that you’re going to have to work on.

That’s also a really important part. And if you don’t enjoy that part, it could be a sign that that’s not for you. And that’s basically what I did.

I took a short course. I liked it kept going. It helps that I got to see it in real life.

So you can go online and find mentoring communities where you can talk to a designer, you can talk to me if you want to. I’m happy to help. And just get a sense of what’s life like when you’re working as a designer and see if that’s something you would enjoy.

Because at the end of the day, if you don’t enjoy what you do for work, then it’s not going to be something you will like. Learning and design is something that you have to keep learning every day. It’s not just do the course and you’re done.

Yeah, it’s not like a box ticked. It’s something that you really consistently have to put yourself in the student mindset. So, yeah, I think that’s really great advice to just dip your toe in and see if you like it, see if you like the vibe.

And I think that’s really great advice as well because if you start very generalist and kind of test different parts of the process, then maybe the research side of things is not for you. But you absolutely love the UI and the visual side or vice versa, or there’s so many different aspects to the design process within product design that if you kind of start off really broad and then you can kind of see, okay, I want to go more in this direction and you just keep finessing that. But, yeah, that’s fantastic, I think, as well.

Free YouTube. YouTube’s so great. It’s such a beautiful place.

And obviously in the beginning it will feel a little bit daunting because there are a lot of resources out there. Some of them are not good. But as you keep working through and learning, reading, filtering out, you will start to see what’s worth your time and then you can focus on those instead of everything, everything else.

Otherwise it’s easy to get overwhelmed. Yeah, definitely. And that’s just like tech in general, right? There is just so much stuff available.

Was there anything in particular that compelled you to go more into like a technology field or did you just kind of fall into it? Well, I have always had an interest and was always reading blogs, reading the news about tech, just being in touch with it. Not going to lie, having lived in San Francisco helped a lot because everything technology over there. But I have an interest for it.

So it calls me, I see it and I go for it, as opposed to something that I have to force and kind of treat it as a chore. It’s just part of my life. Like, I keep looking for what’s happening out there in tech.

The other aspect that was really interesting to me was the whole culture of tech companies, because it feels like you get to test new ways of working, it’s more progressive, more collaborative, and all of that that I really value at a workplace, I could see that happening in tech companies. So that does play a role into me making the leap as opposed to going through a path that would lead me to academia. In mathematics, for example, I’m similar in that excitement and that it seems like working in tech, you’re always kind of like hearing about people doing things a little bit different and testing the boundaries and not playing it safe.

And I love being able to talk to people such as yourself who just say, well, what’s the worst that can happen? I’m just going to give it a crack and then everything tends to fall into place and that’s like really refreshing. And, I mean, I’m super curious as well. You’ve mentioned a couple of times that you lived in the States and are you originally from Brazil? I am, yes.

Yeah. I’d love to hear a little bit about your journey of how you found your way to Australia. So I lived in Brazil up until my moved to the US with my partner.

We just took the leap. We wanted to live abroad and learn about a new culture. The US was the first one that we found an opportunity to go to.

That’s what we did. We lived there for almost six years, and then it was time to explore a new country. So Australia was the next one.

That whole experience, I think that plays a big role into me going to the tech space because of what I was exposed to. Perhaps if I had stayed in Brazil, maybe I wouldn’t have decided to do tech because maybe I wouldn’t be exposed to it in the environment that I was in. I was an interior designer back in Brazil doing furniture design, so I was already a bit of a designer.

Yeah. Like physical product designer rather than a digital product designer. Yeah, physical product designer, but just for furniture.

I would probably still be doing that because I did enjoy the aspect of designing for physical spaces, but then being exposed to what I could do online, it just made me think about endless possibilities. Yeah, no, that’s so cool. And you’d hear of so many people coming into digital product design from an industrial design background or like a physical product design background as well.

So that’s so interesting that you’ve kind of come from a multitude of different sectors and have found your way into digital? Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. That’s so cool.

Is there anything that you like to do that really lights you up, keeps you inspired, keeps you motivated to be doing what you’re doing? Yeah. It’s an interesting question because if you rely on motivation, you’re not going to get it every day. So I like to think about you need to move in order to get motivation coming through.

And I try to keep an active life. Whenever I go on walks, that’s usually when I get my inspiration. It helps that I really like to read.

So I’m always reading books about design, books about processes, productivity, all of that stuff. I’m always down to read a book about it and also following people that are doing similar things to see what they’re going through, what their experience is like. That really helps me keep grounded to see that it’s not just me.

If I’m having a bad day and I have no inspiration, it’s okay. That happens to everybody being okay with having bad days as well, because sometimes we have this sense of, we must be positive every day, and that’s not how life is realistic. It’s not realistic.

So embracing that the ups and downs has been really helpful for me to accept when I don’t have the inspiration and then find ways to get the motivation. Usually going for a walk helps a lot. And if I feel like a book is not giving me that, then I will go listen to a podcast or watch a YouTube video of a designer that I enjoy hearing about.

And that usually strikes back the motivation to keep going. Yeah, we kind of forget working online, that a computer is just like, it’s a bit of a gateway into so many different things, but at the same time, you’re like, you’re physically not there, but you’re mentally there. Changing your scenery can do the world of good, even if you don’t feel like you need it.

I think for me, anyway, my eyes just a break from the screen. I think my prescription has gotten worse over the last few years because I’m just, like, not outside as much. Yeah, something definitely to kind of try and incorporate into your everyday life is just having a bit of a break.

It’s not always easy, but if we can, if you have the option to get outside, it really helps. And we are all designers wanting to design all day, but we also need to have some time away from the glowing rectangle. Yes, the almighty glowing rectangle.

I’m kind of curious, like, you’ve obviously moved a couple of times. You’ve had a few career changes. Is there any particular speed bumps in your career, Nisa, that have really changed your trajectory or any particular catalysts, know, really shaped your career? Yeah, I definitely had some speed bumps.

Know, when I think about just the fact that I decided to move to Australia and not finish my math degree with just maybe one or two semesters left. That was a big speed bump, because before that, I had one goal in mind, which was to finish my degree and then keep going. And when that happened, it made me reevaluate what I wanted to do and think about whether I wanted to keep going.

Do I want to go back to university, try study all over again? Or can I do something else that’s going to give me a career, but not necessarily force me to go back to university and start from zero. So that played a role into me also thinking about design. Another big speed bump was obviously English is my second language, so whenever I have to talk about things and present my designs, I always have that little voice in the back of my mind saying, make sure you present well, make sure you say things correctly and all of that.

And it does a little bit of kind of pokes your impostor syndrome a little bit. I can imagine. I think that something that I take for granted 100%, I don’t know another language, and your English is fantastic after so long in English speaking countries, it makes total sense.

But yeah, I always have such a respect for people who can be able to present in high pressure situations in another language that would send me into a spiral of, and it’s something that I think us in Australia, a lot of us don’t know any other languages, and it’s super common for people in Europe and in the Americas to know. So, yeah, I think I could totally understand that. That would be really nerve wracking.

I feel quite grateful to be able to speak multiple languages and use that in my asset of things. Pop that on the cv. The other speed bump was probably not having a formal design degree, even though it was my choice.

And I feel like I can definitely learn a lot more and be more selective of what I choose to learn by doing this self taught, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect me. I still think about, oh, okay, is everyone going to believe in what I’m saying when I don’t have this paper to back me up? So that is also a big thing. But then I go back to the thing I said in the beginning.

You don’t need to know everything in order to be able to start doing something. And you’re always learning on the way. Yeah, 100%.

And for a lot of the time, if anyone has listened to a few episodes, I feel like I repeat this a lot, but it’s so relevant. I did a design degree, and a lot of what we learned initially in that first year had changed by the time that I’d graduated, because tech, it just moves so fast. And a lot of the things, if you had done a degree like me ten years ago, a lot of that is not, I wouldn’t say irrelevant now, but everything has just progressed.

So if you’re learning or doing anything self taught or doing anything really in tech at the moment, a lot of that self taught stuff is probably going to be a lot more practical. I did really enjoy theory side of my course, which I feel like is more of the traditional advertising and traditional graphic design stuff is really interesting, but yeah, I think you’re right. If you’re wanting to work somewhere that is really cutting edge, you’re going to be learning it on the job anyway that exist maybe in less than a year.

So that’s not going to be in your university curriculum. Exactly. Everyone’s a newbie.

Yeah. And you get to choose. Okay, there’s this new tech that I want to learn about and you get to do that without having to first do a prerequisite class and so on.

Yeah. But I do value a lot the foundation and the theory, especially around graphic design with topography, color theory, all of that. I think it’s really important and I try to seek understanding of that whenever I can because that aspect of design, I don’t think it changes too much because the foundation is still there.

Even if you have a new trend and you’re right, if you’re passionate about it, it sounds like you are, you naturally want to learn about that stuff anyway and you’d seek it out. And it’s not going to be a chore for you to learn about that because you’ve already got a respect for it. So.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Yes. You got to feed your curiosity.

Exactly. So, NusA, is there anything in particular that you’ve been up to lately or what do you do to take up your spare? Yeah, so I do obviously spend time with my friends and family. They do take up most of my weekends.

But I have been updating my portfolio, which is a big task. It’s been over a year since I put it out there and designers will agree with me. You’re never proud of what you have done a year ago, which is good.

That shows growth. We love to see that. Yeah.

So I’m trying to keep updating it as I go, as opposed to letting it or when I actually need to update it as a recruiter. I think that is very good advice because time and time again I chat with people who have been in their job for five years, sometimes 510 years, and all of a sudden they’re like, oh, my goodness, I need to find another job. And I haven’t touched my portfolio in ages.

They don’t even know how they’d set it up and they don’t know any of the background stories of projects that they’ve worked on over the last few years. So yes, I love that. Yearly is perfect.

Just like having a little update everything, just keep it fresh. Exactly. It also helps to, as you work on any project, any feature, anything, just keep documenting everything.

Have a reflection file every project that you have worked on, because then when it’s time to put it on your portfolio, you already have some thoughts to go. And that way it’s not a huge task as well. It literally will take not even a day.

You’re just like little bits and bobs here and there. Yeah. So good.

And what else are you up to? Is there any particular books or podcasts I know that you mentioned you listen to quite a few of those and read a lot. Is there anything in particular that you’ve been consuming at the moment? Yeah, I am currently reading a book called the Science of Storytelling, which I think is quite relevant for design. I have it here.

It’s from will store, if you guys are interested. I’m really liking it. Maybe a chapter in, but it’s been really interesting.

Different approach to thinking about how you tell stories and how you talk about anything that you do in terms of digital content. I follow the design life podcast. NMG podcast.

There’s one that I really enjoy for research purposes, which is awkward silences with just interesting bits and bobs about interviews, talking to users. I have recently discovered the Newitech People podcast, so obviously I’m looking at that. And just like for some personal growth, I enjoy listening to Duolingo, the french podcast.

Just when I’m cleaning the house, doing anything with my hands, then I can listen to it. Portuguese, English, and French as well. Yeah, a little bit.

Love that. I mean, they’re all very closely related. That’s so cool.

And yeah, I think house cleaning is the best time to listen to podcasts. I think you can just zone out. Yeah.

So good. And I mean, on that note, you obviously have a few people that you follow. Is there anyone in particular that you find super inspiring or any mentors that you have? Yeah, for mentors, I like to keep things diverse, so I don’t stick with one mentor only.

I try to talk to different people. And so I almost go on a big kind of a schedule. People ahead.

And then eventually I get back to the first mentor. Perfect. But yeah, to get different perspectives.

One designer in particular that always comes to mind when I think about what they’re doing and inspiring work is Femke from Femke design. I think she’s in Canada. And yeah, I just.

Just like the way she talks about stuff, and it’s really inspiring and approachable and. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, sweet.

And how do you follow her? Is that like on LinkedIn or does she have a blog? She has a YouTube channel. She has also a community on peer. Super peer.

So you can talk to other designers there, which is really nice. Yeah, cool. Yeah.

And she’s also one of the hosts of design life, the podcast, as I mentioned before. Perfect. So, yeah, definitely be able to get some insights a couple of different ways.

Yeah, that’s really cool. Thank you. Yeah, I think whenever I ask that question, I’m mentally notating every answer down because I’m a big advocate for just little bits of content here and there that can impact your day, impact the way that you’ve been thinking about a problem.

Obviously, YouTube is a bit more of the longer form content, but there’s so many designers that I love to follow just on TikTok or little bite sized stuff I find super duper helpful. Yeah. And sometimes just grabbing a recommendation here and there, or a book recommendation or a resource that you can dive deeper into when you have some more time, that’s always valuable.

Yeah. Awesome. And I like to finish off the podcast with my favorite question.

If you could give your younger self some career advice, what would it be? Juicy. I think I would say just listen to your gut because it tells you the right stuff and start designing already. Because I always thought about, oh, one day I’ll look into design, one day I’ll do this, one day I’ll do that.

Just make that one day today and start earlier so you have more exposure to everything that you need to learn, and then you can progress faster. Get that ball rolling and stop wasting time on things that seem like an opportunity but are actually distractions. That’s hit home.

No, that’s spot on. I feel like if you’re anything like me, I love to research and do just try to be prepared for anything that can possibly happen. And sometimes the best thing to do is just to jump in.

Even if you suck, just jump in and you’ll learn as you go along. Yeah, there’s so many people that come on, have that go with your gut mentality and advice, and how does that show up for you? You’re just drawn to something, or how does that manifest with you? Usually when I’m overthinking, I think about, what if this goes wrong? What if I try to do a career change, go and do design, and then it doesn’t work. And that’s when I notice that what I really, really want to do is what I’m scared of.

But I don’t do it because I’m scared of the failure. How am I going to know if I will succeed if I don’t try? So I try to apply that to my life sometimes it takes a bit longer than I wanted to, which is fine. And it’s fine.

Everyone has their own timeline. I usually notice that if I am thinking about something a lot but not taking action, it tends to manifest. Like you mentioned, I plan and I make a list of things that I need to learn, make a list of books that I want to read.

But then when it comes to actually doing something or just test a design out, I was like, no, wait, I’ll just read one more book. I’ll look at one more resource before I actually do a project, even if it’s a fake one. Why exactly? You’re speaking my language, Nisa.

I am 100%. I do that all the time. I don’t know who told me it, but the chances of something going drastically, catastrophically wrong and the chances of something going 100% beautifully, perfectly are the same, really.

It’s like one big bell curve. Right? So just that the chances that things are going to be fine, it’s most likely going to be fine. And the things of crashing and burning is super slim.

The chances of it going perfect are super slim. Yeah. So the more that you manifest and look at or obsess over something completely failing, what if you could devote just as much time to being like, oh, what if everything turns out amazing? Exactly.

It’s same chances. That’s true. Yeah.

So, yeah, I think just jump in and it’s probably going to be average, but that’s fine because it’s the first time that you’ve probably done it. Yes. And also, one thing that really helps me is if the bad things, if the failure is scaring you so much, then what would you do if you actually failed? Have a plan for that, because then you know you’re covered.

Yeah, it’s fine. And yes, it might hurt your ego a little bit, but, oh, well, it’s character experience. Thank you so much for joining.

I feel like I have learned so, so much, and it was just really inspiring to hear your journey and how you’ve just jumped into the deep end and just given it a go. So thank you so much for joining us. That’s okay.

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

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