On this episode of the newy tech people podcast I interview Nic Pincombe and Matt Debus, co-founders of Pincombe Cyber.
We spoke about Cyber Security, ethical hacking, work experience and how a passion for web development and Cyber Security developed into a business.
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Here you can source all the things we have talked about in the podcast whether that be books, events, meet-up groups and what’s new in the newcastle tech scene.
We have two people on the show about Nick and Matt Davis both guys and thanks all right guys well we got a place to be here so I know you guys have joined up you know running your company together you also work together start with you Nick Nick who are you for the people that don’t know about you yes I am I graduate with a Bachelor of computer science and I mean I started working at a university the same universe that graduated from for a fuse as a web developer I’m primarily just you know Java and spring with Oracle database did do a few web services as well and and then after a few years outside 215 Newcastle area its I I’m not pretty cold and it’s not together really kind of was looking for a lifestyle that was the beach and the sea kind of combination and Newcastle just have loads of opportunities so I got a job at Boeing as a software engineer yeah we’ve been there for about eight years now is a bank is buying us and don’t have been doing a lot more give up stuff more recently yeah and can counter that I I’ve kind of said a few small businesses I partnered up with with the tax accountant like four years ago and and she’s she’s billing tax accountant and she wanted to have a web service or product written so I really seriously integrated web applications so you’ve been doing it’s been successful with this instance it’s a great product and more recently Matt and I have partnered up to do a on you know cyber security services basically and we’re really excited about that it’s it’s something I’m really into right now yeah I would even allowed to show a man gives cacao do you so very similar to me actually weapon same same University University of New England yeah stay there got my passion with computer science with honors straight out of there got a job at the university yeah I sit for longer than Nick because they forgot eight years yeah job web applications PHP whole range Lee for technologies Perl name were probably written ya know we’re bath in it and then about three years ago moves down here to work for buying as well as a software engineer to EB DevOps space as well that’s in my free time yeah just W bit of web development angular PHP level and then running some pen tests on a few sites through a few clients very nice man so you guys met back at the university yeah very casually oh yeah pretty good friendship for since then yeah 15 years but CTV is still still mates and you get a business yeah it’s a decent crack rap so we kind of found their time you know we’ve always worked full-time job shift since we graduated yeah we found that we had a lot of sort of interest in doing other work outside of full-time jobs yeah we always have a passion for displaying new technologies and you know it’s trying to break through some of the restrictions of the full-time job digit bit more freedom so so yeah we just love as a natural thing just to teen month I guess yeah yeah then you’ve teamed up to create pink own website or security yeah that’s right so we we’ve kind of doing a lot of web development for you know just a kind of freelance colleges so anyone that just means help getting a website developed or maintaining and the type of thing but it’s it’s um really came about when we had somebody who had a website that needed where’s some weed problems going on with it so we did the investigation found out it was actually a blonde earlier that was being exploited basically and and so we offer a service now that allows us to people feel pays to pass your agent test you have the website so we’re effectively doing ethical hacking we’re testing the the vulnerabilities of our website and then we generate a really comprehensive reporting and typically about 20 pages long yeah and I contains so three sections as there’s an executive summary in there that’s it’s sort of much added looking to the business owner they they can read that as really in layman’s terms let them understand what it is that we’ve found the exit business and then the other sections are related to the technical details and there’s something they can take to their development team and get them to fix the problem see if it’s um cost-effective for them alternatively we can we can fix it as well yeah right so you do that you do both testing and then obviously help them out in the dev side game takes what’s an ADA I guess as pretty as a pretty nice one too right there after you what sort of companies you typical quiet just small business initiative management small businesses so they were startups yeah they’re mostly startups or some of you have been around for a few years they’ve they’ve all had and there’s some established web product yeah well actually some of them have just they’re just about to launch a web product there someone else has developed yeah and and they just need it it’s kind of the equivalent I guess like when you ever buy a house or with you in a house and you need a test or building inspector to come in and just an independent thing to let you know that you know what you we’ve got yeah I’m just like a pest and building inspection you sort of just say you know these are the things that are critical you wouldn’t buy this house unless this was fixed these are things that you know you probably want to get looked down at some point I’m not a showstopper and and for those that have had their business website running for quite some time you know over time the vulnerabilities is creepy and gets mr. configure technologies get all things to be updated we let them know specifically what the follies are there and so they can get those things upgraded or patched yeah we’ve just managed if you got a if you’ve got something you’re aware of hey we know we’ve got this vulnerability we’ll just keep an eye on it yeah if someone exploits it you know we know how they getting in I guess it’s a nice service so our first stops the small businesses because obviously if you’re a big company right you brie intestine coming you know coming do pentester you get in fact that but it’s across the exercise very little stages yeah so it’s not something that a lot of small businesses without access to don’t think how or no buying if I was to have something to do right security security scan through my saw a doughnut genuine you depth scaring like it’s probably a my price range be other I guess a breeding that bring that service to the same page businesses yeah that’s yeah and you know we were small startups so we don’t we don’t have a lot of overheads in terms of we don’t rent being building for example we don’t have the only major events that we work from home office so so you know we effectively can do it preaching like this the past that that that we asked for is is really the cost of of doing it and as I imagine you’re probably too cheap oh well yeah customers in and we’re just sort of trying trying to find out the best value we can provide you know you know the most cost-effective way we can yeah that’s the price that we offer it’s very competitive the amount time that it takes us to the end of areas actually on some of the business we had to work for her farm I have presented us with with a huge web application and has taken a very long time for us to go through we only tested about 45 to 50 things like the ivy breeze that we go through yeah and that’s just the standard them and then it’s about what we see and what we we just respond to what we’re seeing in the coming times yeah so take take a very long time but um you know well I enjoy it I really enjoy it so yeah money so I’m a is just a way to for me anyway to sort of confirm that what we’re doing is valuable to people and I always just want to be learning things that available to the society witness to the community yeah that’s really nice oh I guess the odds obviously but come from dead background and fighting to the DevOps mice and the other sort of security as well is that is it just the I guess you mentioned the enjoyment or the interest a secure they it’s got yet there’s obviously security and you were caught growing area is is it just a general interest that took you guys to have this part if I remember the country Union Matt was really passionate about that’s up again like the yeah Matt would be there kind of hacking into people’s there’s some of that friends or just programming to you know yeah it’s just so we’re trying to find out what sort of on really say heading their own their assignments and things yeah yeah you can’t can’t do things this way because someone can go and do this and but it sort of started back in didn’t it it did yeah I mean if you look back in time so that’s it was definitely and sort of that interest there I guess all threatened trees though we’ve always had if you have web development that background so we we purely offer them with cybersecurity because that’s that’s what we know yeah but it’s security has always been you know one of the forefront requirements in in developing applications definitely yeah so it’s it’s like it’s been absent you know that creates it’s just now that we’ve found really start to focus on that because there’s been a growing need from our from a I guess I customers when we’ve been doing a web development typically on that yeah Security’s not here tonight it’s just this yeah we just we’re a lot more passionate about the security aspect of the web development and I think that is important when you for us we work a full-time job and and you really need to be passionate about something to do a long day at work and then come home and do more of something so so that then then type of the type of work or work it it’s a it really energizes it’s it’s interesting it’s interesting and for me it’s like I’m always a big fan of doing puzzles for me you know finding vulnerabilities like cracking a puzzle right breaking into a lock box or something so we’re just talking I guess you know that that rise in there and need for security for companies small businesses what motor abilities out there you know and I think more companies starting to become aware of how definitely I can’t just set up a wordpress site and leave it there you know not update and they’re very ignore the updates ignore anything if that’s what they’ve done that built custom self we’re obviously more capabilities to creep in time maybe you guys are in this space what have you seen the changes in human security or the wareness of it over the last few years I guess for a start here the awareness is definitely Crimea attacks like want to cry you know if they spread a lot of here and so many companies would expect it was that yeah and it cost companies what millions of dollars yeah not just in the cost of killing you know calling experts or getting you know and your claim aware they have to do but it’s also in the velocity productivity is as a major I think they estimated that you know 75 cent cost of the Cyrus Act is in the seeing the loss in productivity yeah to the castle to the organization not being able to do work and began to lure value to their customers yeah and I think that if we’re Nisour sort of changed attitudes as well two or ten people dealing with security it’s not just about preventing people know that hey you know what we’re going to get attacked it’s going to happen and how can we monitor it how can we recover you’ve got this concept of like a chaos monkey where you’ve got your own team that’s trying to break your own stuff yeah under your pen testing you just assume that you get broken into and how we’re gonna fix it and recover within our customs even nine it really shows like we’re seeing some other customers some there one where now you’ve got a business boat attacked back and when we acted like it wasn’t just his business he got into his own his purpose their fleets yeah a TA account things like that and purchasing stuff ends up and he wasn’t prepared he didn’t have a plan and he was frantic he was extremely stressful you know and he it took a lot longer the longer the person’s in there the more damage they’re doing if you if you have a plan in events you can definitely get a lot of those though some costs it was there are different patient yeah as a reactive yeah how dat God’s work so the part see working with you helping them bleep like proactive approaches to hey you’re obviously coming reactively like having a look at you know what’s going on but then trying to help them set up proactive plan even it’s a skill be doing the fun ability assessments that sort of like us being proactive right but I mean missing here’s what we found you’ve got all these things yeah you know fix these ones we got to be proactive Addison monitoring make sure that you know someone does get in you know what they’re doing set up multi-factor authentication right so things are hard to get into it’s a whole range of it depends on the application I guess yeah so you must most of that stuff is actually being proactive working with people before something’s happened yeah I guess that’s probably more enjoyable from your health perspective as well rather and try to be have to go into China thinks somebody else’s yeah that it was quite a successful I really thought for example the one where like wish you seemed to everything and even when you get them out they’ve put in so many things you like ease just do that just to be really annoying just when you cancel the passwords and that they still yeah this time I guess it’s yeah that’s just reset passwords training wheels it’s hard to get in balance yeah some people are in and what do you say dat signa most of it just as a tire fire natural gain is a way that that’s it you have seen with the clients you work with is there you know you mentioned a people here and they’re just being a pest you see it just more so from you know people are doing your favorite funny games or financial going on well I think it’s a combination I think some people in it just to see what they can do there’s a lot of mods out there they just look for vulnerabilities across whatever they can fire and if they get something back that says of this site’s got some vulnerability they might look into it this is someone I can get financial gain out of or I can do something out of they go and do that so there’s a lot of sort of exploration using bots to try and find things and then there’s you know they pick targets yeah whereas I guess some people just doing it for fun yeah I think it’s in our case I think it’s rare that there’s specifically something that hasn’t fradulent somebody and they’re like – it’s it’s kind of an attack of opportunity maybe because they’ve had something that’s positive on moving yeah yeah that’s what you see what do you say what’s the biggest you know as how you wouldn’t what are you seeing what’s the biggest challenges have been going on you say in the security space over the last few years definitely be awareness yeah definitely so when’s the tool because check all the tools here yeah so many more sophisticated attacks – no one’s ever even talked about a DOS attack anymore right it’s it’s about distributed you know denial of service now yeah so much more sophistication so much stronger tools it seems like quantum computing coming they’re talking about how how is it going to break encryption when you’ve got quantum computer yeah I really don’t get things even just the power of the computers that’s a say brute force but again mouths words yeah yeah it’s pretty fun actually when you computer really
species like me guys and then you both doing this not as a passion project bit so you know you mentioned them money’s done two big jobs it’s you got a full-time job and even doing this outside of it is that you just continue to say these growing as as a side project passion project is yeah I think that long as this I mean if nobody wanted it it would be hard to get energized by it if you don’t mean we’re doing it because we’re helping people really yeah so to me that’s that’s part of the driving force creative business over its mother you know justification of verification for continuous do the work in us I think it’s a I think it’s it’s just very interesting and it’s good to save Gazeta it’s not just you bread and by the way you doing on a day to day basis like you did slightly attention to that yeah yeah I don’t think that I would do it in my full-time role I sort of like to keep it as a it I guess it’s a it’s more of a hobby I guess a hobby that makes money is a business yeah so that’s to me what it is it’s a passion and a hobby and and I just make my time but it makes us stronger as well so if you here are some vulnerabilities to be aware of when you go and run away back yeah you’re obviously gonna have that in mind when you go on writings writers Oh leave what I was Ian’s that are in your day-to-day jobs having these on the side yeah that’s right 100% to our security guys day-to-day for you guys in Toronto no no I’m not really I mean its security is everyone’s responsibility yeah and any job I guess they work for Tom now this is quite a skilled team of people to specialist yeah so they’ve been really lead us on anyway we thought this really heavily on on certain types of web applications for example yeah we are offering a try not for a lot of Education on it as well so we’ve got so we created a vulnerable server and then people can use a guide to like effectively test penetration tests on Pinterest that that server and you guys off that yeah we do we’ve got one it there’s a little point but it’s it’s kind of fun there’s a story to it and on this in progression so you can do one and and then there’s going to be another one afterwards like there’s a series of them yeah I mean together can people access this song right yeah it is good of the website yeah they can think what’s the website are you can accommodate you and I swirling that up and there’s a there’s a training link in there it’s just a bit of fun the Oasis is fine yes so it’s and maybe you’re sparking the interest it’s really designed for those who once you get into it I just wanted I guess experience what it’s like to do it ethical hacking the penetration testing and hacia and so you’re trying to the goal is to basically get into the surfing kangaroo access to it and your tongue finder it’s his capture the Flexi trying to finds a flag there’s some piece of information that’s in there that we’ve that we’ve NASA any us you guys bill that said that uh yeah so we’ve we’ve been heavily inspired by our biological mother yeah so it’s same thing evolve is a cycle for Hunter calm and it’s our as you download these virtual machine images yeah and it’s the same deal so we’ve we’ve actually got our own basically and it’s just going to be story to the last minute that’s really probably check it out myself yeah there’s a schoolboy seriously yeah freezer with others fun really interesting and the fact you guys gonna feel that and even educational tool okay right I think it big good little agent well as well for you guys it’s all gonna hey you guys can be building this probably pretty any of what you do and I get you there yeah coming to our business yeah good time fun Alice has made really interesting guys especially the fact that it tied this is in the end your bread about a day in day out like this is you know driven by passion it’s interesting so how’s the business been around for now oh this is security aspect part of it is Libyan their year maybe once every now and then promise today you know this we’re just yeah constant you guys are obviously best likely commute cost what have you seen what if you say babe iced here’s a third disadvantage to you guys it doesn’t really matter obviously what you guys do can be done from medieval hip hop so building your business heavy Satan you can so socially I mean I grew up in Amida which is pretty small town there’s not much of a community well there really a chem dense about group of friends I yes yeah a few people at the university wears around here there’s a tape of the prom yeah they put beauty groups around you know we’ve got these new e Tech Talks there’s the codis group on Jas coders group you’re in comparison on though it’s like being in keeping candy store so much here in New Castle yeah so here we go that we Castle coders crew every chance we get yeah which yes great I’ve gone there yeah her birth the organizers on here before yeah doing that podcast you know yeah a besides we attend mm it’s like you know DevOps day when tomorrow’s the last year yeah I was great it’s great to be perfect that was a really really well run man it was fantastic yeah there might be a whisper of something similar a she kinda yeah I think you’re fine is there yeah yeah there’s a different name for a really well Ryan Tinkham in Utah so bringing paper together I think that get really well because I had a specific you know I can go in the DevOps but yeah did appeal to a lot of people so then I said that yeah yeah I agree it was it was a mess security yeah they also I mean I kind of had a bagel with never spotted deep you know there’s a lot of different and it’s super EKU’s Inc yes I’m obviously some advantages come from small-town Nobunaga Cindy acaso because a person you know people who came from Sydney to et Costco from you know big city to Newcastle it’s called meetings to ask them you guys going the office of the way have you face I a lot of benefits if you guys obviously getting challenges you’ve faced I guess in telling people is in his beak here’s what he did in the huge cities like seeing and things like that and there’s not as many businesses around that we can sort of approach and things like that we we were alive you I don’t have it’s been very hard for us to build trust on the internet and things like that it’s repet izing and things like this yeah so hard you know we’re gonna we’re gonna hack your site for a bit of money people are gonna go straight for that it’s something you can sort of meet in person and talk about it it’s some yeah it’s a lot easier the people that we have talked to that they know us from before and trust us they’ve been really happy with what we’ve done for them yeah and you know they’ve talked to other people because they know a business owner there’s no other business owners and that’s what they really love for us but you know it is a confronting thing for someone to to say that we will effectively like penetration test are doing ethical hacking are and so yeah we have to begin to build up that Charleston that happens absolutely yeah and it does and through Rome and obviously like relationships if somebody you can can talk to how good you’ve done for the job to them and makes it easier for somebody else to come jump on board on anything too many people are buying code tracing testing from our website at that same time no we I don’t think we’ve had almost any real people contact us through that there was just one exception where I were talk to somebody through social media Sunday didn’t know me from back so yeah anything they were already in that situation is oh yeah when people had bad situation mouth turned – yeah it was sort of well a lot of trouble already there’s not much more yeah I think worse you can do to me so yeah absolutely so if you want to take super easy so we mentioned I would argue about I did our same degree their opinions on that degree I think with any degree or anything you don’t do you get a hell of a way you put in so I think we threw things as far as we really could do didn’t ever really push the envelope we weren’t just there to get a piece of paper we really went out trying to excel as best we could and if you took the we took the difficult path like the more difficult courses I should say yeah yeah and gave us a good foundation I think yeah was and probably should make some good connections yeah and we’re still friends so we’ve got other friends around yeah this is I hate value that’s from me right yes because it’s great value yeah I think I think University can be a number of things to different people education for a while but networking the social aspect of it getting to understand how to learn is another ante because frankly you got a save like you’ve you’ve got a lot out of that university grade how important do you think that’s been in your career I think to me it’s been important but I don’t think it’s the only way you have to go we’ve we’ve known page of other professional software developers who don’t have a degree in just as successful is as everyone else one of our older managers was an exceptionally good software developer and sociable self-taught even have a degree or so you know it’s not it’s not absolutely necessary and I think that even businesses who hire don’t necessarily require you a degree that if you really know yourself then no that’s probably fine there are however some organizations that do require a degree it’s important to them especially if they’re maybe like an authorized engineering organization they there’s a requirement in even though they might still hire people with the degree it might potentially limit your ability to do certain roles in that the organization like maybe improve software designs or something for example so I guess I can see it for anyone who’s looking to go get a degree or skip the degree and just try get into the workforce I would say you really have to have a clear idea where you want to work I mean it’s always you can always get you been too safe to get a degree gives you a good foundation but tell there’s nothing better than real life altering experience in my opinion yeah definitely working on your own if you doing things that are working with other people in real life we want real life problems that’s that’s the best way I think to learn yeah the great empty point working with other people as well you know you take projects and things like that through University can be a real benefit me making the work force you you’re having to work with other people it’s not just you banging out something by yourself right because there’s that doesn’t happen the work force either you’re working teams I need five percent of the time and the ability to work with other people communicate with other people is a big important part of it yeah yeah I also think if you’re trying to get into computer science and you’re not sure or software engineering or whatever it is there’s a lot of open online courses in today’s we yeah pen testing yeah course just as a refresher just to get math and see what’s available and that was that was great now there’s a lot of University costs becoming free online as you know I did some through Stanford and things like that yeah and that’s a even when you can play it you know they still be at some example e contributes a few credits towards if you want to jump in and actually do it yeah that’s what I guess a qualification yeah I’m totally great I think it’s definitely going to space but then there’s other options available on those other options you mentioned a couple them is there any other you know the internal parts of education that you guys have done well we mentioned bottom um if you want to enter security go check out on top aren’t try if you walk through a lot of lot of them have some really good walk throughs that say you go run this command see what it does step you through how you can slowly get into a system and find some flags yeah they’re for me I are having interesting now in business as well like you uncoupling my computer science my programming with with business so that’s the type of education I steer towards yeah but I think that if if people in general become software developers they should they it’s always healthy to a couple that together with something else like for example our software in law is is a growing market as well as a little girl needs to be lined fully lined on the inside for in law or if you know I partner with a tax account for example so software Domino and sewing just gives you the ability to produce something but unless you have a great idea open with the someone that you can turn that product into into something useful oh yeah oh there’s a thousand more than thousands thousands of apps city in the App Store which will be a well built you know who don’t have any users right you don’t have that product market fit originally so understanding of who you building is for what are you doing who you’re building it for I left knowing somebody who knows that people pardon me somebody does that it’s obviously better right yeah yeah you can write the best code in the world but if no one sees it yeah that’s right yeah it’s a good oh good I’ll see you guys but obviously really busy working full-time jobs and then running your side business some productivity tools how to get this damn what was let’s start with me so I guess yeah there’s not another time my free enough from the full day at work so for me activities about having a really clear idea about what I need to actually do something you know smaller modular that I can accomplish so they have a lot of time to progressed never or muck around so I am I use a an agile board makes it really clear what’s fun Center used to be done I have a pretty reliable fast laptop you know you don’t want to be if you waiting for something slowly something a distracted gives you excuses not to get work done nothing for me as a developer I need to make sure my environment is pretty well configured because my start point on the latest code and it’s and my virus broken for whatever which just happens sometimes I like to know that I use um I used operon and I’m ansible at the moment yeah it seems to work for me so that dislikes when the containers my environment and over well-defined configuration and so that means I can be a fireman okay application and it works and I can write in my code and test yeah that’s great stuff I think for me a doctor notes all the great tools are you doing break a system and leave it in a weird state and it’s curtain up get rid of it start again clean fresh yeah it’s easy also keeping good wiki time we here to the dog easement surrounds and we can not you know keep track of different things a week yes per sentence we follow things like that it’s because we’ve been quite a few different products you know of all their customers Joe keeping up you know he really helps fresh the memory basically yeah man selling things differently and you guys advice to contribute to that obviously I had to do very nice any other toy bees map from productivity respective from practically Tibetan Twitter I pretty actually want to be accessing arouse yeah yeah yeah so in terms of hacking tools use tools like socially it’s basically a database of common front realities you can use that and use Metasploit to exploit those those one release yeah this tools like a wasp zap and just automatically go and try out the top ten most common vulnerabilities on your website there are some speed that that’s what a process up a bit furnace yeah things like that that’s link you guys obviously both learned this as und but didn’t assert you know course on top of your degrees any other forms of educationally you’ve said whether they were a book or a podcast you really recommend to people that might have an interest in growing their you know their knowledge your insecurities so I’ve done a couple of Coursera courses as well yeah definitely a good Coursera the Konishi things around this is a lot of what do you looks yeah it seems like it comes very want my Peter teal you know really good book late start up yeah Aaron Brooks yeah to next room wow great I think a lot of my kid Mata was the business only issue yeah any others on top of that story that you’d mentioned I found really available with you if you’re into business the the personal MBA was I was pretty Goods it’s basically like a full MBA yeah of course compressed into a 13-hour will you work in Ostia it’s good a good fundamental stuff really adds don’t put myself through an MBA most of people that haven’t to share do anyone that has because that isn’t definitely I was put into that thing yeah yeah that’d be two three four books that you sort of point people in the direction on anything from a pure security perspective if I’m sitting here right now listen there’s an i/o on the dev or I work in this and it’s you know around the space and however some interesting that would be my first point of call are definitely on well site without that’s your top ten went on a busy very fast fantastic resource I’m talk about a youth yeah because you died to you if you ever you know the government’s stance on that yeah and so and what they’re doing stop I says that’s cuz I sent that information security manual yeah which is effectively like a big comprehensive list of all best practice rules yeah you can secure a salary secure you definitely go look at some things like searchable your list upon abilities there to come and check out your website and have a come check his website check your test IT news.com that a you has a security section have all the latest sous-chefs I’m security use yeah yeah it’s great Rosie you have the ability database it’s another one we use as well and is there anyone anyone in particular putting out really good content paper should follow the ones we just mentioned it yeah sweet all right good few guys I had to wheel things back and take yourselves a younger version you saw something different something you you know you wishing you a little bit earlier on definitely for me is so seek out opportunities when you do really really thinks opportunities come your way a little bit but it’s never enough to you gotta really go out there and find find things like this go and do things we wouldn’t have gotten the security hadn’t been cut your tongue out there get out there you do things don’t be afraid to fail fellas just a sign that you’re sort of on my track of the year if you’re not failing you’re not trying hard enough yeah yeah so just get out there do things it’ll make you grow yeah I’ll agree that I think you like to tell my you know myself anything it would be about very senior mentors as well early it’s I have a habit of trying to do thing to myself and figure it out sometimes my way no Fairley’s people and they will say she’d learn from your mistakes but I find that it’s quite an expensive way of going about doing something I think if you find someone who’s done what you’re trying to achieve the only really accelerate that learning curve so I definitely would we don’t recommend there for anyone starting out so seek out mentors and because I mentor yourself as well I think when you when you teach other people your craft it really helps cement it for yourself as well yeah yeah only if people were taking some mentorship oh yeah definitely yeah we’re happy what’s the easiest way to get in contact with you guys probably the website is even contact contact us through the website you know and we have Twitter and Facebook as well looks like that up in the show notes how I people can who can hear that up in hopefully I reach out see if they’re looking for I don’t know a little bit more information or some mentorship or just ask questions yeah we’re really happy to help I think growing that community it’s it’s all that witness and education which everything that guy jobs a lot easier too yeah I think that we’re trying it’s a grand leash of the community as well yeah it is I’m really hoping to see more people doing this type of thing soon ah I have suspected some other people in this space we were like why do we want to see this growth um it’s definitely it’s not that there’s not a massive massive market there and still it small segment of the technician you castle yeah it’s growing and we will see you grow oh well point people say check out the guys website is www.pevs.com very pinc a and B so I come down here get in contact with the guys there or – the do they’ll test of gangland yeah get out of crack guys thanks for coming in today yes oh yeah thanks a lot next case thank you looks like.