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Episode #29: with Jemimah Irvin

17 Sept, 2019 | 35 mins 56 secs

On this episode I interview Jemimah Irvin, Service Design Lead at NIB Health Funds.

Jemimah and I talk about her move from Sydney to Newcastle, her experience going to university later in life and changing careers. Interesting to hear about her experience transitioning into the design space.

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People to follow:
  • Christina Wodtke- Editor of Women Talk Design
  • Zoe Rose – Designer
  • Sara Drummond- Founder of Snook



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  • Transcription:

    Welcome to NewyTechPeople today we’ve got an open forum in our they service design lead there welcome hi thanks for coming on the podcast today thanks for inviting me I think if you pay what special and design space know who you are but for those who don’t give us a quick overview of who you are what you do yes so I’m a service design lead NIV health once I started off there either UX designer and I did a Bachelor of visual communication design at the University of Newcastle I did that pretty recently I was a late bloomer you might say I’m getting back together and before that I lived in worked in Sydney as an executive assistant for an aged care organization so I had a bit of a midlife career change definitely it was and he started on an internship right I did yeah so that was organized through the university I think it was one of the many joys of Newcastle’s that it’s 3 degrees in separation so someone at the university spoke to someone who worked in IP who put them in touch with the design person at the University and they were like hey let’s do some internship so that was Gwyn Thomas and probably the most well known I would say yes there might be someone that is more known but I don’t know them so I’m just gonna say yes yes I Glenn Thomas organise these internships for myself and I’m Lauren Jones he’s also a local designer and yeah that was a three month full-time internship whilst doing uni full-time so it was really interesting those it was amazing and it changed my perception of what design was which I thought was more of a surface level aesthetic you know maybe thinking a little bit about what the market needs but not really actually thinking about the human needs so that just changed my idea of what design was and from there I just almost left or other stuff to one side and pursued the more human centered design and everything got a job at NIV and yeah I’ve been there ever since so about four years now come and what did spark that move from Sydney to Newcastle net moved from and arrow into design yes so I’d been working with that organization for 12 years which I look back now I was like that was a little time and I’d done a lot of administration to work and got into a bit of they’re like function management and desktop publishing and you know doing the updates on the website because it was like a one-man band kind of thing we had no budget for actual people with skills and we went to rebrand exercise and I convinced my boss to actually get a design company to do it not just get me to design a logo and that process I find it really interesting and I sort of wanted to be on the other side of the table and I just said yep okay I’m gonna quit my job I’m gonna go to a design degree and yeah you’re nice I haven’t looked back back in the days where our logos were done in-house and websites were done well the same guy that does and I think it was it was not that long ago yeah it was like 20 2012 2010 yeah it was just we were a charitable organization so there was just no interest or budget for anyone to have that job as their own job we just sort of split out there so other things with anyone that was interested and so I liked that sort of stuff so I intended to land on my plate yeah mas I think that’s been a change over that sort of little period of appreciation for designer so yeah what’s your sort of experiences around I guess you know citing that UX role and where you are now and a change in mindset with people and appreciation for design yeah I definitely think new businesses a beginning or have been seeing the value of design over over a long time I think back in the 90s you had Don Norman working with Apple as a user experience designer and you know I think we all saw the impact that that made on Apple’s popularity because it was almost like they were answering human needs before we even knew that we had them it was just so intuitive so I think that being able to put that dollar value design for companies has made a big impact on these roles being more available for people and just yeah like people like like Glenn just mentoring people and being able to show the value to the business that hey if we do this in a way that you know we build this website so that people can actually do the thing they’re trying to do they’re going to come back and do it again and that that helps us as a business and yeah I think the appreciation for design where companies are starting to appreciate but yes I’m just isn’t about something that looks nice yeah yeah there was a project I worked on last year which i think is part of the reason why they I mean I can’t be sure if this but I think it’s part of the reason that the service design role was created at ni because we worked on a project we took a service design mentality and took that approach and we made a difference in a problem that they’d been trying to solve for a very long time by taking this rather than the business being like we think this is what the problem is this is how we’re going to solve it we went really customer centric we used co.design and we did a pilot with 30 customers and we made a massive difference just with those 30 and we thought okay there’s something in this this technique this approach let’s do more of that so that’s that’s I think why I have a job now as a service design leader at MIT because there was this growing appreciation of those human centric design processes being applied to business problems come yeah for those who don’t know what you do yeah what is the service designer so I think the high level version is there’s a business problem that I will be given and/or find out about and I’ll work with stakeholders in the business I work with employees and I’ll work with customers to try and unpack why that problem is happening and then work with again all of those three groups using various design processes and skills to come up with a solution that actually meets the users needs or the members needs that is a better experience for employees as well like you don’t want to be creating great experience for your customers but making it worse your employees and that’s feasible and viable for the business again you don’t want to be creating a great experience that then you’re bankrupt within a year so that’s kind of that balancing act and it’s always really collaborative you know I think if I get to the end of a project and it’s like tada here’s the solution that’s and no one’s seen it before that’s I’ve done really badly I think all of those stakeholders the customers the members they need to be part of that all the way along and yeah we do Co design sessions where we can where we get people to come in while they’re business people or employees or customers and get them to help us actually design the solution so we want to use that expertise that all of those people have as much as possible rather than me just being like I think this is what the solution is because that’s what very human centric right you know human side checks would be pyro and I think that’s a there’s a rise in roles not only in your type I roll their eyes and roles that sort of sit in between you know humans and technology and it’s about you know what I was building why are we building it doesn’t go suggest oh yeah we think this is a great idea what customers will love that generally centering it on you just customer orders yes and look it’s it’s it makes good business sense as well like if you can test something with people before you invest a lot of time effort and money into building the finished polish product and you discover like if you do that and you discover no one’s using it that’s a huge waste raise if you can test it early or do research early and even just a paper prototype in front of someone and you can go okay well that was a rubbish idea let’s let’s find a new one and it just saves you so much in the long run so I think it’s it’s so worth it do you think well I think bigger companies have already made that move just start doing best in these type of roles and smaller companies obviously probably still in that space where you are and please go a multiple people you wearing multiple hell yeah when do you see the future of you at a garage just more growth yeah I think as long as there’s technology that humans will use I mean I think I won’t get into like the bot revolution but I think yeah well as long as this humans using technology there’s gonna be that need for people taking a human centred approach be that designer you know with a capital D or you know just anyone taking a design approach I think that’s really important so I mean and what the idealist in me would like to imagine that anyone involved in creating technology will have some human centricity to them I think that’s a bit too idealistic but it would be great to see and I’ve seen this at NAB with some of the people I’ve worked with in deputy like they are hugely human-centric can they take that approach and sometimes will say things and I’ll be like oh why didn’t I think of that and so I’m seeing that change already happening with a lot of a lot of people have worked with so I think in the future I think I’d like to see more of that it doesn’t have to necessarily necessarily be someone who’s been trained or has a degree in it but just making sure that whatever we do is embedded in human needs and it’s answering a real human problem and if I wanted to be extra idealistic to look at the impact that has on like broader culture and society and the ecosystem like you know you make one you know that old story about like for the lack of a nail or always lost like if we do this one thing it might be good for our business it might be good for our customers but what impact does that have on our community or our country or our society and yeah I think this may be impacts we need to start to be thinking about that I don’t think I don’t see happening enough now yeah I’m gonna stick yeah some people are doing it so I’m like and more people start to do it okay yeah it’s a momentum thing as well once yeah more people start doing it and getting a further appreciation for it will continue to snowball I think yeah it’s just looking at a broader system nice um you know obviously made that career transition you did that through doing a university degree yeah Newcastle was your experience great look I I loved it a hundred percent I actually thrived at university which surprised me because I did University when I first left high school back in the 90s and I flunked out twice and I thought okay clearly I’m not a university person so I just want to got a job but then coming up to Newcastle and doing this degree that I just loved it it was just so challenging and there was some amazing lecturing staff and just the opportunity to dive into ideas in a really deep and rich way that yeah like I came into design thinking I was going to learn how to do type and color and illustration and then discovering that was just so much more depth to it was great so I have nothing about to say about my university experience it was I’m still involved with trying to help people in the design degree get experience like I’m working with some of the staff now to get do a workshop at ni B for students like design thinking and so yeah I try to help students wherever I can in fact I give back because like Glenn was so great at getting my career started I want to pay it forward as much as possible because you’re involved as a tutor after doing your degree as well briefly very briefly yes there was a one of one of my teachers actually went on paternity leave and they were doing a UX component so I got a tap on the shoulder I was like yeah let’s let’s do this it was a great experience all right yeah so that was really short stint but it was really good I have a university degree obviously led to the internship and lots of opportunities came out of doing University yeah do you think do you think I was a different experience having done it later in life I suppose that straight out of school what for me it definitely was I mean I can’t speak for everyone but for me I guess I knew what I wanted and I’d had a lot of experiences in life of you know like I think when I first left high school I did not know how to study I did not know how to be organized I lived a long way from campus so travel was a real pain in the neck so when I moved up here I was like okay I need to live close to campus these are the things I need to do to make sure I yeah get my marks and I just had a goal and I just yeah just kept driving towards it all the time that’s something very great experience it was good yeah that’s awesome have you done any other forms of education little bits and pieces like I’ve done courses and workshops but nothing nothing there was a piece of paper attached I guess no but I think that doesn’t I don’t really think that matters too much to me as long as I’m getting out of it what I need to so yeah I’ll go to Khan and if there’s a workshop attached that I’m funny interesting or I think will help me with what I want to learn I’ll do that sometimes I’ll see things like meetups in Sydney with have a great speaker so I hate doing because it’s just so inconvenient but I like hike down the Sydney if I like on a Thursday night or something ridiculous not always on the most inconvenient school night and yeah go to meet up just to hear one person speak and yeah so I try to do that as much as I can because I think it keeps it keeps me fresh in my profession and I don’t pretty fresh at it yeah yeah that continual learning right to say yeah I’m gonna go to city on Thursday night I don’t you’d be you know a very small minority that you do that it’s not super regular that’s like a couple of times a year baby yeah but yeah is there any is there any outside the meetups is there any courses or online things you can in particular that you’d recommend some people yeah so there was one idea which was called practical service design so that was an online course so it’s one that’s there’s no deadline attached to it so you can just do it at your own leisure which was good I think you do get like a digital piece of paper at the ends but I don’t think I’ve ever downloaded it that had some really good tools and techniques there’s been some I think acumen do courses which are sometimes connected to I do so that’s always good so I have a lot of respect and admiration for the work that I do do so anything that I can do that they’ve had input in I find really beneficial but yeah then they’re all free on those ones the practical service design was it free yeah oh cool then you’ve already mentioned a bit of a mentorship you had earlier on command at University any advice you give to people that a bit younger and you know funny–i mentor or experience with mentor yeah I don’t know if I’ve got advice that’s useful um I think just ask be brave enough to ask and don’t be upset if someone says no because it is a commitment for the person that mentors you as well so they might not you know everyone’s got a little bit of impostor syndrome I find in the design injury I don’t know if it’s across all industries but definitely in design even some of the people I really respect still have impostor syndrome so they might not think they’re capable good enough to be mental so maybe some people say no but I think it’s always always important to ask and even if the person doesn’t think they’ve got much call for you you could say hey I don’t want the whole shebang just maybe just this a little bit I need help with this one thing you know I just start off small but yeah it’s it is hard in Newcastle it’s I think one of the challenges is there isn’t the breadth and depth in my side of design that there would be in Sydney in Melbourne yeah that is that that’s sometimes why do you travel because you just don’t have those opportunities up here yeah I also think it plays part of it you know your role is a more newly-found role in the easiest five plus years ago so yeah there’s a definitely a smaller market of people to tap or ask yeah he’s a challenge it’s a challenge of Newcastle what do you bring need a Newcastle from Sydney was it great yeah so I did the whole like go do a bunch of different university open days and there was a student ambassador at the university opened day for design that was just so passionate and so enthusiastic and just knew her stuff and I just thought okay this course is producing people like that I want to be part of it I ended up working with her at ni B Newcastle small place so that one cs1 call if anyone knows her yeah and she’s doing amazing things now in new excessive yeah yeah new constants like the university is really powerful for Newcastle in bringing talent to the area and then also educating people in the area so we’re really lucky to have a university as good as Newcastle you know local it’s great but our you mentioned couple a little bit little bit Sarah from a challenge perspective with Newcastle any other challenges do you think we face being up here is it just you know lack of talent poor lack of breath yeah probably yeah for service design there’s not as far as I’m aware there’s not that many opportunities in Newcastle so if for whatever reason I wanted to move on from ni B to you know get new experiences or you know work with new people this I not aware of too many places in Newcastle where I’d go so I probably have to go to Sydney and I don’t really want to go back to Sydney moment so that would be difficult yeah so that would be one challenge and yeah I think definitely the the mentoring the networking which is one reason why I’m really passionate about my ex di is a challenge because there’s just not it’s not as many people and not as much step yeah yeah you mentioned IX yeah yeah we’re gonna go there excellent give us give us an overview for people once again I’m not been there don’t know I’ll – ah yeah so IX ta it’s um I’ve got to remember the acronym now no I’m not even gonna try you can look it up google it but it’s an international organisation and Glenn and Greta started off the Newcastle chapter a few years back I think critic greater had encountered them at an overseas conference and thought we should have one of these in Newcastle and I went to a couple of the events they held and it was amazing so it’s it’s just all about getting people in this sort of human centered design interaction part of the industry just together to you know share war stories or get a speaker along and just learn and grow together and I’m a big fan of any type of education so yeah I I loved that idea of IX ta but it did it running a meet-up it’s hard I don’t know there’s probably a few people listening that run meetups and it’s it’s it’s tough going so I think there weren’t frequent events Phi XDA and that made me sad so that’s why I put my hand up and said yeah I’ve had a little bit of experience doing a meet-up cuz I was involved with the design kids Newcastle me don’t ya and so I can help you just at least have regular meetups and then you guys can do anything else you want I’ll just make sure that there’s a date in the calendar yeah yeah just half the battle really yeah it is and that’s what I’d like from TDK you just you just need to have a regular event and people need to know what’s on so they can turn up if or when they need to yeah come if people are gonna turn out why should they expect so it depends on the the night so sometimes we try to have a bit of a rolling schedule and so we try to get someone you know one one month we’ll try to get someone who’s you know good speaker he may be like last month we had an amazing person from Sydney come up I’m Karina Smith from meld and she talked about design in big organizations and the challenge of getting the value of it across which wasn’t just fantastic and we’ve had people talk on content and accessibility so we try to do talks that either inspire or inform and we also just have other happen evenings might be quite casual and just more like a network you so you just they might have some you know sort of speed networking kind of questions for people to have chats about but just it’s more like like a bees and food and just conversation and then we occasionally try to run workshops more hands-on experience so you can sort of do a bit of learning but you’ve also got you know you can talk to the people in the group and so you’re doing that networking on the side yeah yeah how many people it depends so on a night like we had when we get the big speakers along that Corinna Smith you know we probably had I actually didn’t do a head count but I want to say that I felt like it was about 50 people in the room and it was huge for us other nights we might have four cuz it’s you know a bad night for people and that’s okay so that might be if we’re doing more of a just a network e beer in chats yes we call them you might get four or five people along on average we’re probably hitting like 10 to 12 yeah yeah ask that 50 papers a massive turnout that was we plugged that hard because getting Kareena to come up from Sydney it’s just such a big get for I guess the design industry in Newcastle so we were pushing out through the University through as many networks as we could because we thought she had a lot of things of value to say can’t we wanted to share and so I made up comrade yep yeah you can find us there yeah which is also on UE tech people comm who did try to help promote those events oh that’s great and it’s good to help sort of build that community as well in Newcastle yeah as he said like I think my other challenges have got is a lack of people maybe the lack of knowledge around that space so the more people that get educator and the more opportunities to my otherwise yeah an educate to their company is why don’t we have a need for these other odds you know we do get a sort of a diversity it’s not just designers that come along and we’ve had engineers we’ve had people from council come along we’ve had people in the tech space come along so it’s yeah if what we’re talking about is relevant people will turn up and you get a good sort of cross-disciplinary sation happening which is really great but the wrong really is a cross-disciplinary is that does sit between that technology and you know other parts of the business as well so it’s quite interesting mass yeah it’s good I hope for that you know continues to grow and grow is that space yeah yeah yeah yeah running it’s running a meet-up is definitely a challenge yes since he’s a challenge yeah yeah average in ten to twelve I think that would probably be very similar to a lot of the other domain ups around I think there’s definitely need for those those niche meetups as well to have you know conversations other people that yeah facing the same challenges oh absolutely yeah I think that’s part of part of the appeal for me is just to be able to see with like-minded people and be like hey I’m facing this kind of a challenge can’t give you the details but you know how would you approach is you know hearing other people’s stories known to other people going through the same challenges this year it’s I don’t know why would it soothing yes yeah I think okay you sound like you’re quite a busy person right Coco found me on co-hosting and made up for camera how do you how do you manage your day how do you manage is there any productivity in 30 years is there anything that you yeah really interesting that so I think probably my new favorite thing is miro or used to be called real-time boards and it’s a really great way because a lot of what I try to do is make make problems visual so or make solutions visual so it’s you know looking at current state making journey maps or you know if I’m in a meeting with a bunch of stakeholders almost mapping out the relationships between them all and what they’re working on so I can look at it later and be like okay that person in that person I need to talk to them about X rather than going to a page of notes it’s all visual so with mirror it’s it’s cloud-based so I can share it with people as well and I can we can be working on it together you know remotely so that’s that’s been great because I can just you know flick-flick a link to someone to be like here’s here’s what I’m imagining this should be or he’s my stakeholder map and this might help you so that’s been really good for collaboration which is a lot of what I do so I love mirror boards I’ll link that up in the show notes yeah that sounds really interesting yeah it’s basically like a big virtual whiteboard I see and you can do kind of anything with it I’ve seen people use it for product Maps or yeah I use a lot for journey maps but yeah mind maps and brainstorming and yeah it’s great the other thing I use it a lot is trailer I think that’s probably a well-known tool yeah it’s very versatile and again you can collaborate and we use it for strangely enough for research we use it for research documentation and so back in the back in the day we would put post-it notes on the wall and do a Finity mapping where you’re grouping like with–like together and that’s how we do our research analysis and we at some point we were like well let’s try this in Trello and we started to do the same thing so it’s digitized and it’s just there and you don’t have to worry about having a wall because finding a free wall is like finding gold and so you can do it digitally you can do it remotely you can all be sitting at your computer is doing it it’s maybe not as much fun but it’s quite effective so yeah Trello has been a really good tool for all sorts of things but the research analysis was a surprise though surprised use yeah saving the rainforest I have seen that true different colored posting

    all the different color taste notes on the oil yes as he said sometimes there are some advantages of having people in a room and yeah hey it’s not always it’s not always applicable you can’t always get it running so if there’s a way to do that and have people remotely all working together yeah and for some of the research pieces we’ve done you would have like you know thousands of post-it notes yeah based on how many trial I can’t switch hats so yeah yeah it’s it’s good yeah and somebody has to document that all at the end of the day as well all right so having y’all done Trello each other it’s he’s just cutting a step which is good yeah very nice anything else you use on a daily basis

    just probably some graphic design tools oh he’s he’s I’ve used sketch I mean I use the illustrator a fair bit no in my service design role then I did with UX yeah you actually sketch a lot but I think because one I’m probably illustrating more things these days which is odd I’m using some of my design skills probably more than I used to yeah it was a surprise yeah yeah so yeah design tools to taggers to visualize things to share with people and sometimes that’s yeah that’s half the battle sometimes really it’s like trying to communicate what you’re talking about right if you can you’ve you know through the illustration is there yeah yeah and I think trying to communicate so if we do a research piece of like here’s what the customer is experiencing so this is the problem we’re trying to solve being able to communicate that with you know even tis really basic forms of illustration you can communicate emotion and feelings and so that creates empathy with the people that you’re talking to and that’s again half the battle like to get them to understand the journey that the members going through and empathize with them that’s really powerful yeah yeah and understanding and taking that back and you know actually building something with that understanding significantly easier yeah I mentioned education more formal education is there any any books you read or have read that you found really impactful those one I read last year I used to read all the time I should say and I don’t anymore it’s terrible but there’s what I read last year called try to remember it things called dark matter and Trojan horses and I can’t remember the author’s name I’ll find it it’s a skinny little book and it actually uses the New Castle I forgot the name of it there was the project to invigorate the empty spaces in New Castle renew the new New Castle thank you yeah so it uses that as one of these examples in the book which is fascinating but it’s just talking about trying to get into the spaces within a business to make change and doing it sometimes through a Trojan horse so you do a project but you snake your bit of like good human centered design in there or looking for the dark matter that kind of holds things together and maybe that’s where the gold is where you can start to work and actually affect change so it was fascinating little book that’s nice little book size that’ll be easy for people yeah I’m not doing in a couple of weekends yeah yeah nice if you’re not reading so much anymore is there a podcast you guys know or any audiobooks or anything yeah I look I’ve been listened to a few audiobooks and I do this into a lot of podcasts not a lot of Industry specific ones of light so I’ve been listening to a lot of this is gonna sound really weird true-crime vodcasts we Jenna was super popular and I think one of the reasons I like that is not just for the whole true crime aspect which I do love but the interview techniques that people use actually really educational for me so like when I talk to customers and members and employees like just learning how to ask questions that get involved valuable answers and with those true-crime podcasts they do ask really good questions so that’s been really really interesting for me and I love that I think I’m trying to take something unsuccessful somewhere else and then introduce that into you know a different field is it super successful like a lot of things I’ll read or listen to as well around not human behavior as opposed to recruitment Bach yeah I’m but if I can understand you can behave you’re not saying you know what people what people motivators are and things like that and psychology a little bit that’s sort of on my edge yeah I just I think that house may become you know better than understanding human beings yeah it makes me better what I do the same thing there for you right is that how to ask questions how to you know get more out of people with those interviews yeah yeah yeah look the human behavior yeah when I when I was reading I was reading like a lot of biographies because I think yeah just understanding different viewpoints of the world I find really powerful what’s your kind of biography man no you’re putting me on sports a while ago there was one I recommend the name of it but it was from a former US ambassador know and I think he was I think it was an ambassador to Britain and he’s his perspective on politics and says it’s an older book but it was really yeah I quite enjoyed that I was the only bit bit of a political bent at that point and um I did enjoy his perspective on US politics which I did not know that much about at the time but right now it’s on that yeah then I started watching the West that all change hahaha that’s the other podcast I’m listening to a lot of them is the West Wing weekly yeah and I think again I supplying the ways that they do storytelling in film and TV and that and just like they’re kind of like unpacking that all on the on the podcast and I didn’t even realize no I watch an episode and I’m like oh that’s great but then they unpack it all the podcast and I realized all of these little pieces that go into telling a story and part of what I do is storytelling and so I guess learning like the reverse engineering of a TV show as is kind of beneficial sometimes but it’s also I just enjoy listening to the podcast alright this is my favorite part of the interview today

    like the things that you and I would take for granted watching it you know which TV show or somebody’s currying you know I just successful but then if you want that back it’s like how do they get to their yeah well they went through these ups and downs and these learnings along the way and that’s you know that’s how they become who they are today and no different with the TV show like ins and outs yeah because these that make that story flow well yeah I love something I’m just take that off and then apply that to you know what you’re doing in bed yeah yeah yeah that’s very interesting is there anyone that you follow anyone who you think any blogs any people on Twitter that you think hey if I want a great marker in the design space you should really follow this person yeah so I I follow a lot of people on Twitter so I’m not gonna mention them or um I think one of the things that I in general I would suggest that people just follow people that are really different to you like look for Pete and particular for diversity I try to fill up my Twitter feed with people that with diverse voices because you know I’m a white girl living in Newcastle I have a limited experience of everyone’s experiences and I think if I can open my mind up to what other people live that’s really beneficial and as a designer I think that’s really really important to recognize that your viewpoint is just a tiny speck in the universe that there’s just so many more voices out there in terms of specific people Steve baby from meld Carina Smith from rails I just find them good people to follow and as a designer core Cristino gonna pronounce her name wrong good key it’s spelt wo d TK she’s designer she does a lot like them with like measuring the value of design so I find that really important because often I have to say okay this is this is what we want to experiment with or test and how we’re going to measure that so we know what impact it has and so I find it really really valuable to follow so hero’s an Australian new waxer I like following her she’s got some interesting articles and Sarah Drummond from the UK she is one of the founders of snook in terms of service design she often will post blog articles or resources and that’s really really great she’s got a good voice but speaking out for the value of design right all right nice come if you had to provide some advice for an earlier version of yourself oh it was been a bit of a change right yeah and it’s it’s one of those things actually have thought about this question previously in my life like hearing what would I tell myself if I go back to my yeah high school version of me be like okay this is what you should do to get ahead but I think if I did anything differently I wouldn’t be sitting here so I kind of want to just tell myself like it’s gonna work out yeah and maybe pursue the weirdness a little bit more I think too often I just didn’t do things because it was like I’ll look I’ll look weird people think I’m silly or I’m not qualified to do that but I think sometimes you just got to grab those opportunities so I think I would have told myself to just be a bit braver and not think that someone else could do it better but just give it a go class yeah very nice and if people when I follow you catch up with you yeah chatzi what’s the what’s the best way yes so I can be found on Twitter yeah and you can find me on LinkedIn I’m not always the best at replying cuz I don’t always check it and we’re asking even on the eye XD a meet-up is a good place yeah yeah that’s probably the best place I won’t people can come and have a conversation yeah just come to I XDA absolutely just come to XD but yeah always willing to have a chat about design if there’s any students that want to know more about cracking into the industry I’m happy to have a chat very nice yeah thank you for your time today that’s all right thank you for joining me.

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