Join us as we follow Jane’s journey from a small town in Australia to leading design at a fintech startup. Growing up near Port Macquarie, Jane found her passion for design while studying graphic design in Newcastle. After some globe-trotting adventures and a career change, she discovered user experience design and honed her skills in Sydney. Jane built her experience at agencies before realizing fintech was her true calling. Though a stint at a corporation proved too restrictive, Jane finally found her fit as Head of Design and Experience at Superhero. Now, she leads a growing team focused on design systems and research. Tune in to hear how Jane continuously evolved both her skills and her career to end up doing what she loves.

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Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Digitally Diverse, where we do a deep dive into the careers and journeys of the design and tech leaders in the Australian industry today. We are very lucky to have Jane Hamilton join us who is the head of design and experience at Superhero. Welcome, Jane.

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for joining.

I guess I love to just dive straight in and I’d love to hear a little bit of an overview of your journey so far, where you’ve come from and yeah, give us an overview of who you are. Absolutely. Okay.

I grew up, if we want to start there, at a small town near Port Macquarie on the mid north coast. And after school I actually went into graphic design and started an advanced diploma at the TAFE in Newcastle at Tys Hill, which I absolutely adored. Newcastle is such a great place and that TAFE experience was awesome.

Really passionate teachers in a nice class environment too. And after that I moved to Sydney, actually finished the degree in Sydney and from there went into publishing actually, which was back in the day before the GFC when magazines were pumping and stayed in that industry for a number of years. Really had a career break and went and worked on a super yacht.

Bit random, but that allowed me then to see a bit of the world and save up and do a bit of traveling. And I came home and this is post GFC, went back into publishing, but it was then a different, somewhat depleted world. But I also found that graphic design wasn’t then enough for me.

I guess the iPhone was out by then too and that’s really showing my age, but that was just an area that I was curious about. I saw these apps and I was like, who designs this? How does this work? How do I get into that line of work? And I tried kind of looking at other areas of the design industry to go into. I did award school and did quite well with that, but found that advertising probably wasn’t going to be my calling.

And then interestingly enough, the company where I was working at the time, they had a product team and design team and they were doing a bit of an educational tour on what they did and how they kind of fit into the business. And so I went along to one of their presentations and they gave a bit of a talk, but they also showcased a documentary. You might know it, it’s called design disruptors and it was produced by, I want to say, envision.

And I thought to myself, this is it. This is what I want to do. And coincidentally, I started to research the courses that you could do Academy Xi and Ga that are available in Sydney.

And I found that I was kind of umming and arriving which one to choose, and then all of a sudden I was made redundant from my publishing job. Digital was a little bit more digital design then by that stage, and it was just the perfect kind of segue. This path just opened up for me into, I guess, the UX UI product design space, completed the design immersive course at GA and haven’t looked back since, really.

So that’s kind of a bit of an overview of how I got into this wonderful industry. Yeah, I love that. And I think as well that it’s interesting that you mentioned you finishing up at that job.

Probably not your choice. I feel that that would resonate with a lot of people at the moment. There is a little bit of uncertainty within the industry right now, but it’s great that you were able to pivot and take that as an opportunity to learn something new.

Absolutely. Yeah. I’ve coached some people through redundancies because it can be quite a shock.

I did spend, I don’t know, the next day on my sister’s floor crying. But once you get past the initial shock, it does help and push you and encourage you to take that chance or to look at a different option or consider a new perspective. So in my experience to date, redundancies have never been negative.

They’ve been a positive. As shocking as they can be at the time, you can come out the other side stronger for it. No, that’s great.

When was that? From that time until now. What have you been up to? Yeah, what did that look like? So basically, the immersive course was, I think, about three months and Ga, this isn’t an ad for them, but it’s one of the best learning experience I’ve ever had. They’ve got a real kind of pulse on the industry, and so they really kind of set you up with a strong foundation in the skills that you need, but also in, I guess, teaching you about the different directions you can take your work in.

And I always had my eye on agency work. I felt like at the time, I was new to the industry, still learning my skills, and I knew at or in an agency, you’d kind of be able to taste test. It’s a bit of a pick and mix with all the different clients that you get to work for.

So it was amazing how great those first couple of years were in looking at all the clients I’ve worked with, which have all been good in different ways, but it really allows you to have that kind of initial induction. Is this the space that I want to go into? Is this the world that I want to work in without committing full time to a role? So that was an awesome part of it. And also I feel like the learning that you do in agencies is quite steep.

Yeah, you’re chucked in the deep end, that’s for sure. You can be, but if you’ve got the right kind of support around you, that becomes less intimidating. And that was the case for me.

And I guess then having worked with government, universities, automotive, I’m just trying to think who else that was in there. Some startups. I realized that fintech was the space that really kind of got my attention, not because I’m particularly interested in finances.

I’m sure my finances at the time were not that sound in terms of how I was managing money, but I just found that world to be interesting. They’re very complex, I guess, products that you’re trying to simplify, you’re trying to kind of break down those barriers to entry, especially for new generations that are coming through where the whole finance, trading and investing especially was maybe a little bit more exclusive. So it felt really good when I was designing these products to make them more inclusive.

So, yeah, worked with a big fintech when I was at an agency, thought, this is for me. And then it was just a matter of finding an in house job. I did go to a big corporation and found that a little bit, you’re a small kind of clog in a massive wheel, and so it was a little bit too maybe stifling for me coming from agencies.

And then I found superhero. And it’s definitely the Goldilocks of jobs in my experience. It’s not too fast paced, but it’s not too slow.

It’s a competitive industry. There’s a lot of competition, which appeals to my competitive nature. And there’s lots of room to move and explore in this industry, in this field as well, I feel too.

So it’s really been, when you land a good job, it makes just the difference to your life, really, because everything you spend so much time at your job, at your work, a, you want to be passionate about it, but you also want to be in a good environment, working on a good product. Yeah, definitely. And I can totally relate to you wanting to go into that fintech banking space and you’re really passionate about it.

But some people are really great at being cogs in a big machine, and they thrive on looking at the nitty gritty, super zoomed in details and they’re fantastic at it. And then, especially coming from agency, I can imagine that going from one extreme to the other must have been really jarring. So it makes sense now that you’re in more of like a middle ground at superhero.

Exactly. Nail on the head. I think that it’s all personal preference.

It’s what suits you. I’ve got people that I’ve worked with in the past who are in some government jobs or the big four banks, and they love it. And it just comes down to what suits you at what time of your career.

Every job, I think, can offer you something and it’s just a matter of working out what works for you and going from there. What kind of projects and things are you like, what day to day are you working on a superhero? Obviously, I know that you can’t tell me anything in the super detail, but yeah, I’d love to get a bit more insight about what you do every day. Sure.

So we’re definitely a growing design team here at Superhero. We’re about to hire, or we have hired one additional team member and are looking to hire another, which will take our team size up to five, which is really exciting. So at the moment I’m doing quite a lot of recruiting, but I really enjoy that.

I think it’s kind of like user interviews too. You get to meet someone, you get to find out about them. So it can be a very pleasant experience.

I agree. Yeah. I guess at the moment we’re spending a lot of time, as you would know, we’re spending a lot of time, or a fair chunk of time really setting up our foundations too.

So as we scale, we can do so responsibly. I feel like that’s a trend in the company too, is to grow responsibly. I know that from experience myself and seeing other people around me, redundancies can really hurt.

So it’s nice to be part of a company that isn’t just hiring 50 million people and then thinking about it. So it’s a bit more kind of thought out. So, yeah, at the moment it’s growing the team, it’s working on our foundational pieces.

So our design system, which we’ve called Minnie and I can go into why we nicknamed her that, and also the user research. So one of the first roles that we’ve hired for after kind of getting a UI designer and a UX designer, I really wanted the next person to really focus on our user research, can never do enough of that. We’ve done bits and pieces ourselves.

We try and do like a big set of research every six months. But having someone that’s going to have that kind of written into their job description I think is very exciting and can’t wait to reap through rewards of learning more about our customers and converting that into making our product a better product. Awesome.

And for those who don’t know exactly what superhero do, could you give us a bit of a lowdown about what the product is? Sure. So it basically started as an alternative superannuation product. The founders kind of found that with superannuation in Australia, it’s their big mysterious, I guess, corporations that aren’t as maybe forthcoming as they could be.

And they wanted to give people more control over their supra. Be more transparent with the fee structures as well. So we kind of actually started in the superannuation space.

One of the co founders also worked in finance and found that people were asking him a lot about how to invest. And that was another, I guess, reason that they wanted to look into creating a product that would allow people to do that. So basically with the superannuation industry and subsequently the products, it’s highly regulated.

As they should be, quite right, as they should be. They basically were building this product that was taking them maybe a bit more time to launch than they thought. But they had the trading aspect of it ready to go.

And so they kind of turned to each other and thought well let’s launch a trading product while we’re waiting for the super one to be finalized. And that’s essentially what they did. It was around the COVID time, it was a dip in the market.

So lots of new traders were trying to get into trading and investing. It was a great time to do that. And they found that the product itself really appealed to especially newer traders.

Basically because of fees and also the look and feel of the product, the user experience. It wasn’t as intimidating as maybe some other ones that are out there. So that’s how superhero started.

They then launched the superannuation product itself which allows users to, I guess, invest so have that more control over their superannuation, but again in a contained environment. So you can choose to trade a certain percentage of your super. It doesn’t have to be everything or you can choose to essentially trade it all.

But there is safety nets around it. So it’s a great product, we love it here and there’s so much potential around it. So yeah, it’s an interesting journey that superhero has been on to date.

I mean, for me anyway, I know personally, I hopped on the bandwagon of putting $5 here and there over Covid. Yeah, and it was an interesting time to be joining that kind of sphere because it was just like, it felt like low risk and there was lots of new players coming around on the scene as well. So, yeah, it was interesting.

How have you found now that things have, quote unquote, gone back to normal, has that impacted the product at all or the onboarding of new users? What’s that look like for you guys? Yeah, so definitely around Covid, we saw the biggest influx of users en masse. That trend, know, slowed. As you’d expect, the trends itself, they really do follow the market trends.

So this year, for example, the ASX isn’t doing as well as maybe the american markets. So we’re seeing a bit more action in the trading of american shares and etfs and assets. So especially having had a background in this industry for a while, it’s more interesting to see the different kind of user segments, user groups that are coming through.

It really used to be expert power users that were using trading products, but now that user market has just expanded to everyone and in between, from someone who’s trading, putting away $5 out of their paycheck each week to trade, to trading their super. So that’s the exciting prospect for us, is to develop a product that all users can use and enjoy and meet their goals and needs. So that’s probably the biggest change I’ve seen.

And, yeah, we’re busy trying to essentially create an environment which suits all those user groups. Awesome. And yeah, obviously, because I know that you probably can’t go into super detail about what specifics that you guys are building.

I know that you mentioned that you were growing quite a bit at the moment as well. So what’s the team like that you work with? What’s the culture like? Yeah, so the design team, we’re small and mighty, that’s what I say. And we’re lucky enough where we all get along really well, too.

So superhero works with a hybrid kind of work environment. So we have a couple of days from home and three days in the office. And I always find that we’re always sitting together, having lunch together.

So it’s very pretty tight knit and yeah, it’s just really enjoyable. So working with the two boys that I have with me. So one is a UI designer.

While fresh to the industry, he is incredibly talented and has a great natural eye. And then the other, he’s not a boy. The other guy that I have, my team, he has a consultancy background.

Cool. And he studied ux through Covid as well as I think it seemed to be a trend, really, people kind of studying during that Covid period when you had a little bit more time. Yeah, definitely.

And he is an absolute natural. So you’re only as good as your team, and I’m very lucky to have two very talented, astute, hardworking team members. And, yeah, we’re producing some good work considering our size.

And as we get bigger, I can’t wait to really, I guess, just grow our little family. It’s very exciting. We’ve been small for a while, so having more people, I think just the potential and what we can do is going to be easily doubled.

Yeah, and I think that’s so true. When you’ve been part of a small crew for a really long time, the thought of someone else coming on board and you can pass on the knowledge and have another person to bounce things off is super exciting. Absolutely.

I think we’ve done a lot of work, too with our onboarding experience, and I really try and get people in and onboarded in a very welcoming fashion. I try to have everything planned out for their first week so they don’t have to think. They can just come on and absorb and learn, meet people from all over the company and hit the ground running after that.

So all about holistic onboarding experiences. Having been in the position where you kind of handed a laptop and given a pat on the back and off you go, really try and finesse it so people feel like they’re succeeding already on their first day. Yeah, there’s definitely been a trend of, and it’s great that it’s become more of an established thing of having a really good onboarding makes such a massive difference to.

Absolutely. Job love initially and, like, confidence initially. Yeah.

I feel like gone are the days where people put in a couple of Zoom tutorial things and being like, okay, now you’ve done two days of training. Off you go into the big, wide world and you’re like, what am I doing? Sorry. So, yeah, that’s really great to hear that.

That’s, like, a big priority for you folks. I guess with that being said and training and education wise, I know that you mentioned that you did a GA course. What was your higher education like? You did Tafe as well.

Is that something that you’d choose again if you were know, start from the mean? I don’t know how much it’s changed in that industry. I’d be interested to kind of actually look that up the course through, actually, and I’ll be upfront about this I applied to get into visualcom at Newcastle University and Mr. Spot, such a popular course.

The mark to get into it was quite high and I didn’t quite get there and it was a family member. My aunt actually said to know, just come to Newcastle, go through the TAFE system, do a year there, and then I guess go into the university with these extra credentials. I’ll accept you then.

And I was like, yeah, that sounds fine. And I didn’t really have a lot of expectations for TAfE at the time, but it was a whole selecting process. You had to go in and do like a design challenge.

From the outset it was like you got the sense that it was a privilege to be there, and from there it was so good. They prepared you so well for the workforce. No shade on university, and it was a while ago now, but I did work with other university graduates and they had lesser skills in the actual platforms that we were using, which they learned very quickly.

But it was interesting. I was definitely ready from the outset to bust out indesign and Photoshop. So would I choose it again? Hard to say.

I think the university degrees these days offer ux kind of UI product design too. So that would save you having to do a private college later, perhaps like I did, which was an investment. Those colleges aren’t cheap by any standards, but the quality, especially at GA, would recommend the whole experience.

The user experience of being through a course of learning how to do user experience was really exceptional. I would classify. So, yes, would go there again.

Yeah. Oh, that’s really good to hear, because obviously it’s a very popular way for people to get into the industry, especially over the pandemic where you’re right, so many people wanted to reskill and utilize that time to brush up on something that they could use down the line. And, yeah, as someone from the viscom program at the University of Newcastle, I loved the degree.

But I definitely agree with you. The theory side of things, which, I mean, you kind of expect from a bachelor degree, you learn a lot of theory, which I really enjoyed. But the practical side of things I also agree was a little bit, I definitely don’t want to say lacking, but there was just less of it.

Absolutely. So when we were put into industry, it was a steep learning curve, but you get on with it and it’s fine. Yeah, it’s interesting to hear, you know, both sides.

Yeah. So again, it’s whatever suits and I think no matter what angle you come at it from, as long as you’ve got that grit and drive and interest, there shouldn’t be anything in your way. Yeah, university, tafe, private college, it totally comes down to a personal preference and drive, I believe.

Definitely. And yeah, I think it also depends on location as well and your means at that time. So many online options to choose from now as well.

A lot of free options to choose from at the moment, too. Yeah. It’s cool to hear that it doesn’t really matter at the end of the day.

It’s just what you do with those skills when you finish and when you’re ready to apply them, how you do that. Yeah, and the free courses and the short courses that are out there are just so good for dipping your toe. I’m speaking to people around the office who are interested in this area of work too, and recommending some of those free courses to see if they really want to explore the industry further.

So there’s a lot more options out there than however many years ago it was when I was out of school and looking to study. Yeah. And I guess in that line of thought, is there any other advice that you would want to give to people thinking about getting into tech or into design? Yeah, it’s a good question.

When I came out of Tafe with my degree, you kind of were filtered into one segment, I want to say. So it was kind of either print or digital design. But now the best thing is, I guess, with user experience, you can take it into different areas that can be in store.

It doesn’t have to be online. And then I guess the difference between, I mean, if you follow the design diamond theory, you can focus on a section that you prefer at either end of those diamonds. So it’s either the UI section and design systems are becoming such, well, have become, have probably always become an important factor in companies.

And then the research side as well. There’s lots of opportunities to just focus there so you don’t have to be end to end and kind of be a jack of all trades. You can select what area interests you, which I think is really cool, too.

And it’s something that I think helps businesses as well, to have those foundations of those either side of the design diamond and have the people that kind of go between as well. And that’s one of the best things about, especially starting an agency, is you can start as a generalist and then kind of test out what you like, what you vibe with, what you don’t like to kind of figure out where you want to land. Absolutely.

Yes. Definitely a pro of an agency. I was introduced to design systems there.

My first one that I worked with was Westpac Gel and was just blown away. And I couldn’t get over how well documented this was, how easy it was to use. Was just so impressed.

And then at the same time, at the other end of the spectrum, we did a lot of user research, heavy projects, too. And just the tools that are out there now to use that are making that process even more efficient and effective is really exciting. Like you said, it’s a great opportunity to not only see what kind of skill set interests you in agency, it’s also the client side as well.

Which industry do you want to focus do you want to go into? So very glad that I spent some years in agency. Yeah. Figured it all out.

Well, Jane, is there anything in particular that motivates you to keep doing the good work that you’re doing at superhero or any self care or productivity hacks that you like? Sure. I think to answer that question, I’ve always been a designer. When I was little, I wasn’t so much playing with the Barbies.

I was kind of set designing their world. And I think that would have loved the Barbie movie then. I haven’t seen it yet.

Terrible. You have to. But I really want.

Yeah, the production design is just beautiful. Yes. Put it on your list.

Oh, my God. That’s going to appeal to my six year old self for sure. Definitely.

And probably my current self. Yes. But, yeah, it’s always been a part of me.

It’s always been in me ever since moving out of home and creating my first apartment, creating a space for myself, it was so tightly kind of finessed and tuned. So it’s part of me. It’s who I am.

I like things to work well, to be as efficient as possible, and to look good. So that’s honestly the simplest terms. What drives me and what motivates me, and then productivity.

I mean, if we really kind of drill down to that, it’s just list keeping. That’s how I track things. I think that sometimes creative people, our brains can be a little bit all over the shop.

So I really try and keep a very well documented. No matter what platform I’m using, notion Asana, et cetera, or just notes on my Mac, I keep that pretty tight. I know what’s happening when it’s happening.

That kind of discipline allows me then to, I feel, put more energy into creativity because all the day to day documentation is taken care of. And that probably gives your brain a little bit more freedom to explore those ideas and problems because you’re not like, I’m very much the same. I love a good notion page to keep everything notarized just so I think I can be quite scatterbrained as well.

I feel like there’s multiple tabs open in my brain at all times. And if you can keep all of the day to day stuff written down and out of your brain, then you can focus on the big stuff that’s floating around in there. Couldn’t agree more.

I love that tabs open in my brain. That is so know, especially on Mondays. Know you’re.

Oh, yep, I’ve put that off. I probably should get back to that. If you didn’t write that down, then that’s gone off into the ether and never to be seen.

I guess I’d be curious as well, Jane, to hear what kind of challenges and speed bumps have you faced during your time in the industry? Is there any that have really shaped where you’re at at the moment? Yeah, so many. Everything from redundancies, toxic workplaces, poor managerial role models. Luckily, after facing each of those, you have a period of kind of reasoning with that, letting it kind of settle.

I’ve been lucky that it’s just made me more determined. I feel I’ve just always had this little voice in me that’s like, you’re good at this. You are.

You can do this. So I was, and still remain really gritty about my determination to do well in design, to design great products or whatever it is I’m designing, really be it onboard experiences for my team to a whole UI refresh of a platform. So, yeah, I think that there’s no straightforward path for anyone, really.

It’s just a matter of when you get that knockback, like being confident in who you are and what you’re doing, your drive, your passion, your motivation to help pull you out the other side. Yeah. So I’m kind of glad that I had those tougher experiences because it also makes you appreciate when you do find your Goldilocks company and product and team, that you just appreciate it all the more.

Definitely. And I guess that resilience piece, I feel like that was a key thing running throughout your experience. Is there any techniques that you have had to put into place to foster that, or is there anything that you do day to day to just center yourself? Do I do anything? I know this is just really little, but I’m an early riser, and recently, because I’ve moved house, my life has just been in boxes for quite a time.

So it’s just about finding for me those touch points in your day that really make you happy? For the past couple of weeks at least. I’m a crazy cat lady. I get up early.

So does my cat. I haven’t been able to find my joggers, so I haven’t gone for a walk or a run or something like that, or to the gym, which I need to get back into. But I’ve been having, like, my little happy touch point for the morning, has been having a cup of tea while my cat sits on my lap.

Like it really appreciating those small moments. So when you come into work and you’ve got ten meetings, you’re like, oh, no, I’ve had that window of just relaxation and appreciation of my delightful little pet. So I think that, yeah, I’m lucky enough to live near a beach, too.

So whenever I go down there, it’s just kind of grounding yourself in those moments of being really grateful. So I know journaling is still a big thing, but I guess for me it’s just capturing those moments and appreciating them, holding on to them. Yeah, it’s so easy to have those moments, but then just be thinking about those ten meetings or not sitting there and being like, this is nice, just soaking it in for a minute.

Yeah, it’s good to hear that that’s something that’s like a solid part of your day. Definitely try to make that. Yes.

And what else do you like to get up to in your spare time? Do you have any hobbies or anything that you like to do consistently? Yes, I took up weightlifting at the beginning of the year, which I’m very proud of myself for doing. Oh, yeah. I’ve always been playing sport and the like, but as you get a bit older, you need to be making sure that you’re looking after yourself and know that statistically, women, as they get older, lose muscle mass.

So just trying to keep healthy and focusing a bit of time into that. I also play sport, so I’m always at a touch football field at least a couple of times a week. Nice.

And what else? Like cooking. That’s the other thing I really enjoy. I think that it can be a meditative task as well as a creative one.

So if I’ve got a podcast playing in the background or something like that, you could really kind of lose yourself in that process, too. Yeah. And just like the act of doing things with your hands, I think is just really nice in today, where we’re always just on the go and looking at screens, actually creating something with your hands is really great.

Oh, my goodness. Yes. I guess what kind of podcast do you listen to when you’re in the kitchen or day to day? Yeah, I guess they kind of vary.

This american life. It’s just such beautiful storytelling. Always been a fan.

Classic chaps. Ten looks, three. Yes.

Looks, three. That’s it. That’s Annabelle crab and Lee sales.

And it basically is two friends talking about books and movies and plays. So that’s where I kind of get my cultural hit. And then conversations, ABC conversations, another great more local storytelling podcast.

And then for my work, I often listen to kind of different kind of financial podcasts. It’s a great way to learn things quickly, and there are some great ones out there. Equity mates, comedian and economist is a really enjoyable way of tracking what’s happening in the markets, in the finance space.

It touches on details about the australian market, the american market, so directly related to our product. And then it also mentions what’s happening with interest rate rises and how that all works and intertwines with markets as well. So that’s another great one.

That’s also quite hilarious. If people are interested in going into the fintech space, I think that’s a good one for kind of contextual learning. Yeah, kind of easy way into it.

Yeah, definitely. It’s very interesting that you have a bit of a mix, because if anyone really listens to the podcast quite a bit, there’s a bit of a trend that I’ve noticed. Designers either love to listen to a lot of design or like work content or none at all, where you kind of seem like you’re in the middle.

One of the first people that I’ve chatted to on the podcast, where you’re kind of like in the middle of the two camps. So that’s really cool. There you go.

Well, is there any designers or mentors or business leaders that you really look up to at the moment? Yeah, sure. So I think that with the. I guess my role now is becoming more and more managerial.

So it’s a matter of keeping up, I guess, that skill set and hearing different perspectives and trying to finesse those skills. My current boss, Wayne Baskin, he’s been a great inspiration. He has a great managerial approach, so I’ve learned a lot off him.

But I also am lucky to work. I mean, I think when the company, to take a step back, first started, John and Wayne hired really well. The two co founders hired really well.

They got some strong leaders in the business to build out their respective teams. And there’s also a lot of female heads of too in the company. And that’s awesome to see, especially in the fintech space.

They’re good at what they do. We go for coffees, we have chats as well. So I’m surrounded by, I guess, a good range of different managers, and it’s interesting to hear about how they manage their teams and see how they manage their teams well as well.

So kind of directly. I’ve been very fortunate. And then the old faithfuls that are out there, like Simon Sinek, he’s such a great.

Also, you know, read a lot of his books, follow him on LinkedIn, listen to Ted talks as well, and then I can’t help but the more obscure inspirations. Ted Lasso, I know, is a fictional character, but just as a way of. I think he’s encapsulated a lot of what Brene Brown started, conversation around vulnerability, but he invites a lot of fun and almost kind of chaos learning into his fictional team that he leads.

So he’s a bit of an inspiration, mostly around the theme of kindness and being curious instead of judgmental. I think that that is a nice one to remember, too, both in my work and managing my team. Definitely.

Yeah. I love that. Such a good role model in so many different ways.

Bit of a random one. Really valid. I don’t actually think you’re the first person to say that.

You look up to him. Yeah, I love that show. It’s so good.

Yeah. Classic. I like to end the podcast with one of my favorite questions.

So, Jane, if you were to give yourself some career advice for when you’re younger, what would that be? So my career advice to my younger self? That is a very good question. I think mainly just keep on listening to that little voice. It can be quite hard starting out, no matter what industry you’re going to once you’ve got your little degree.

But if you’re passionate about something, I think that helps. But it’s also the grittiness that’s got to come with that. Being confident in what you want to do.

It’s about just being open minded to all learning experiences. I’ve had good managers in the past just going off our last question, and I’ve had absolute shockers. But you can learn from both.

So nothing is a wasted opportunity. It’s all building up to be who you want to be in your career. It’s all shaping you, so just stick with it.

And I think that I would say to myself, it’s not going to be an easy road, but it’s going to be a beneficial, official one. Yeah. And then I’d say, good luck to you.

I love that. Thank you so much for joining us. I really enjoyed just having a chat with you and hearing all of your nuggets of advice.

I feel like there’s so much that anyone can pick up there. And again, thank you so much. No problem.

Ellen, thank you for having me. That was really enjoyable. I’m glad.