On this episode of the Digitally Diverse series with our host Ellen Bennett we chat with Mikey Ford, Product & Creative Technology. Mikey shares his career journey starting as a developer and moving into the project management space, productivity tips and his perspective on the ever changing technology scene. Hope you enjoy the interview!

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Show Notes

Here you can source all the things we have talked about in the podcast whether that be books, events, meet-up groups and what’s new in the Newcastle tech scene.

• • Mikey’s LinkedIn

Find all local Newcastle Technology Events

• Event’s Page

00:00:20:00 – 00:00:39:10
Ellen Bennett
Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Digitally Diverse, where we do a deep dive into the careers and journeys of our Australian design leaders. So today we have the honor of having the wonderful Mike Ford join up, who is a creative technologist. Thank you so much for joining us, Mikey.

00:00:39:13 – 00:00:45:13
Mikey Ford
No, it’s been yeah, great. I’ve been looking forward to having a chat about this, has been really informative, wonderful.

00:00:45:13 – 00:00:53:07
Ellen Bennett
And I also know for the people who are watching us visually, would you also like to introduce who is joining you?

00:00:53:07 – 00:01:02:18
Mikey Ford
So who got this little. This is George. He just wants to lie next to me while I do this. So if you see a little black hair pop up, that is George.

00:01:02:20 – 00:01:18:06
Ellen Bennett
Thank you so much to both of you for joining us. I would love to kind of hear a little bit more about your your career today. Can you give us a brief overview for some listeners who don’t know who you are?

00:01:18:09 – 00:01:39:00
Mikey Ford
Yes, sure. So, you know, you kind of mentioned Crave technology, which is a bit of a a nebulous role, which is sort of comes out almost out of necessity sometimes that, you know, technology is is moving so quickly and so rapidly that it’s actually very difficult to sort of grasp what’s going on. You know, where when I started, you know, Web was the big thing.

00:01:39:00 – 00:02:00:18
Mikey Ford
And it almost seems I’m kind of dating myself a little bit there, you know, sort of saying that the web, that the Internet was the big disruptor, but, you know, it’s just every every couple of years there’s something new. So that’s kind of been the defining part of my role. You know, I started as a developer and started then moved on to project management where I was managing teams of developers and designers.

00:02:00:20 – 00:02:23:28
Mikey Ford
And just at every point in my career, it was always, you know, technology was changing the way we do things. And so I tried to sort of stay ahead of that. And, and, you know, in my studies and the roles that I took. So I think, you know, it’s kind of a catch all type, you know, role description to say that I’m, you know, actively involved in how do we creatively apply technology to solve, you know, user problems, business problems.

00:02:24:01 – 00:02:47:25
Mikey Ford
You what is the long term strategy? So just quite a generalist role. And yeah, so I’ve also studied did a master’s in Interaction design and Electronic Arts at Sydney Architectural faculty. So, you know, my stuff has been sort of very grounded in, in UX, but also in the sort of humanities and the art space as well to sort of bring those two things together to create interesting experiences.

00:02:47:25 – 00:02:53:14
Mikey Ford
So yeah, a very long winded answer, but yeah, that’s kind of what’s brought me to where I am today.

00:02:53:19 – 00:03:09:24
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, nice. And it sounds like, you know, what you’re up to is it encompasses so many different forms of design and a lot of different functions as well. So yeah, you’re a little bit more about what you’re up to at the moment. Can you fill us in where you’re at right now?

00:03:09:26 – 00:03:38:22
Mikey Ford
Yeah. So it’s kind of interesting. You know, when we first sort of organized have this chat, you sort of called me on the day where my previous role had been made redundant. So it was kind of interesting timing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s a bit of a a double edged sword where it was, you know, obviously it’s it’s always you try not to take it personally, but you know, you invested so much of who you are into these roles and humor and so much into it for them to sort of make a very cold, calculated business decision about sort of things.

00:03:38:22 – 00:04:05:23
Mikey Ford
You know, it does sort of you can’t help but be be heard a little bit by that. But I think that the flip side of that, once I sort of took some time to have a break and have a relax, it’s just been amazing, you know, in a weird way, like the silver lining of that is that it’s kind of opened me up to be available for things that I probably wouldn’t have been looking for or conversations that I wouldn’t have been had the time to pursue working that 9 to 5.

00:04:05:23 – 00:04:44:29
Mikey Ford
So right now I’m sort of working for a with a pre-seed startup about working in the mental health space, which is just incredible, something I’m quite passionate about, you know, talking to companies about building permanent installations, interactive installations and art installations to as part of, you know, just ongoing experiences in buildings around the world. So so I think, you know, whilst the redundancy was pretty rough, you know, I it’s sort of come out of it where I’m seeing a lot of opportunities and working on things that I just would never have imagined that I would have if I was still doing that.

00:04:44:29 – 00:04:46:13
Mikey Ford
9 to 5.

00:04:46:15 – 00:05:07:06
Ellen Bennett
Yeah. I mean, I remember that conversation. We will You literally you picked up the phone and be like, Yeah, it’s really interesting that you called me today because this has just happened. And both of us were like, wow. Like, this is this is not probably not what we both expected. But yeah, I mean, it is happening a lot right now.

00:05:07:09 – 00:05:36:14
Ellen Bennett
Yeah. And I feel like one of the main reasons why I still wanted to have a chat with you on the podcast is just to showcase that people who are also going through this situation are not alone. Like a lot of different. Yeah, it just, it’s, it’s the market at the moment and it’s it’s can be scary but at the same time it’s really fantastic to hear that you’re seeing so many other different kinds of opportunities that are open to you now.

00:05:36:16 – 00:06:04:11
Mikey Ford
Yeah. And I think that’s kind of it’s kind of it is. You do feel very alone and you do feel like, I’ve messed up or I’ve or something, you know, I’m doing something wrong. My wife was amazing. She when when that happened, she sent me these pictures of all of the times that I’ve been really happy, you know, the projects that I was working on where, you know, it’s me like wearing virtual reality glasses at the Australian Open, doing these kind of crazy creative tech projects.

00:06:04:11 – 00:06:28:07
Mikey Ford
Things like these are things that, you know, you were really happy and you sort of got lost, got a little bit working the 9 to 5 and and so, yeah, I know it does feel quite isolating and but I just started talking to people and, and started getting back to what I knew I loved and and I think that in that there was like a re-energising and and using this redundancy money as a way to Yeah.

00:06:28:08 – 00:06:46:18
Mikey Ford
Just to sort of take time and find out well what is it that I really want to be doing for the next 20, 30 years before, after retire, You know, do I really want to be writing JIRA tickets and or do I want to be, you know, messing around with virtual reality and augmented reality? You know what? What’s the the path that I want to take?

00:06:46:18 – 00:07:02:22
Mikey Ford
So so I try to be, you know, get out there and talk to people and talk to people about how I feel honestly as well, which is good. And I find that, you know, people in the industry are really open to that. You know, it does seem quite daunting just to be like, hey, you’re a complete stranger. Can I have a chat to you about what’s going on?

00:07:02:24 – 00:07:36:13
Mikey Ford
But I think most people are really open to just having a conversation. I think people like that and, you know, even you ask me to be on the podcast is like really massive imposter syndrome. But I was really, you know, I really liked the opportunity to talk and, and if that helps other people, again, that’s a bonus. So I think that’s probably the big thing I’ve learned out of out of all this is it does feel isolating, but, you know, just getting out there and talking to people, there’s just so much going on and there’s so much opportunity that you don’t see when you heads down working at your desk.

00:07:36:16 – 00:08:03:05
Ellen Bennett
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And you’re right. Like taking advantage of of your network and knowing that the vast majority of people will help if they can. You know, it’s, it’s, it is really daunting to get out and ask, you know, four or 5 minutes of your time. I totally get that. I get it when I reach out to people to come on the podcast, I’m like, who would want to talk to little old me?

00:08:03:08 – 00:08:19:14
Ellen Bennett
But at the same time, it’s like if you you’ve got to shoot your shot and not. What I found is like a solid nine out of ten times people will get back to you and are like really enthusiastic. So yeah, that’s good. Yeah. That, that’s your that’s been your experience as well.

00:08:19:17 – 00:08:44:17
Mikey Ford
Yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s been really encouraging and I always sort of think, you know, if someone did this to me, what would I do? And that’s how I kind of gauge the reactions of other people. You kind of give them, you know, what is the most generous thing that you could give to those people about, You know, maybe they’re too busy, maybe they saw it and forgot, you know, So trying to be positive about how yeah, my intention is is received as well as, you know, trying to give something back as well to other people that are reaching out.

00:08:44:24 – 00:09:04:12
Ellen Bennett
Definitely. Well, I’d love to hear a little bit about obviously at the moment, it’s kind of hard probably to predict what the next 12 months looks like for you. But do you have any any semi plans or what? What what do you what’s what’s next for you, do you think?

00:09:04:14 – 00:09:22:13
Mikey Ford
Well, you know, I think the thing that as a creative technologist or someone who is thinking strategically about how technology is going to change the way that we do business and the way that we interact and and those kind of things, I think everyone, you know, is talking very much about sort of AI and machine learning and, you know, your chat GPT and things like that.

00:09:22:13 – 00:09:41:17
Mikey Ford
And, and so for me that’s very interesting about changing I guess the dynamic of work and even the dynamic of design. So I’ve been actually spending a lot of time with grandparents. We’d like to meet the grandparents and we go to dance classes and we spend time with grandparents and, and one of these guys is James Trevor. He is an old veteran of the industry.

00:09:41:17 – 00:10:00:19
Mikey Ford
You know, he was he’s telling me about how he used to cut films and stick them together and things like that. And so I showed him, I said, just give me a prompt. He said, All right, I want to see a fire in New York City, in Central Park, and a man running away from the fire. And I just type that into the mid journey and he it just completely broke his brain.

00:10:00:21 – 00:10:19:06
Mikey Ford
So it was really interesting to sort of have that conversation with someone who’s come from this massively sort of analog. It would take him 2 to 3 months to create one image to use as a poster versus I guess maybe just typing that image appears. It shows up on social for 15 seconds and then just gets flicks passed.

00:10:19:06 – 00:10:41:02
Mikey Ford
And that’s kind of the engagement has. And so I think, you know, the what I’m kind of interested in is, is one sort of how do we use that as a tool for something meaningful? And so we’re kind of creating things that are bespoke to an individual, but it’s also meaningful. It has value. It’s not just, you know, almost spamming your eyeballs with all this kind of stuff.

00:10:41:02 – 00:10:59:09
Mikey Ford
So so I think that’s, you know, when you thought about what’s the next 12 months, it’s kind of exploring those ideas and then how do you translate that into what we do in terms of product, what we do in terms of creating features and design, and then maybe how that becomes a tool for what people are doing in the future.

00:10:59:12 – 00:11:19:05
Mikey Ford
But then also I think the thing that I’m always very interested in and how does that affect us as individuals? Has it make us better? You know, how do we sort of have those meaningful interactions and things like that in terms of the way that we go forward? So that’s going to be a really interesting thing, not only from a a user or a consumer point of view, but also how that’s going to really impact business.

00:11:19:08 – 00:11:55:16
Mikey Ford
You know, we sort of look at news that is like, yeah, we’re going to use AI because we can’t afford to compete unless we use AI and those kinds of things. And so I think the next 12 months is, I guess how do I inject myself into that in a much more meaningful way? And whether that is purely creative, you know, working, like I said, with big installations and art installations and things like that where there’s opportunities for that or focusing where I was previously in start up product and how do we utilize these tools to reimagine people’s experiences with content, how they consume and engage and interact with content in new, meaningful ways.

00:11:55:16 – 00:12:15:16
Mikey Ford
And so yeah, I guess it’s a bit of a crossroads now. And, and while I think there’s kind of benefits to both, but I keep when I sort of look at, you know, those big interactive art installations, I just that’s kind of where my heart sort of sits I think a little bit. So I think maybe that’s where I’m going to try and pursue the next couple of months until the money runs out, maybe.

00:12:15:16 – 00:12:17:09
Mikey Ford
But we’ll see what happens.

00:12:17:11 – 00:12:26:23
Ellen Bennett
If it’s kind of like where your heart is lying and, you know, you the butterfly feeling, then. Yeah, you’d be silly not to kind of pursue that and just see where it takes you.

00:12:26:25 – 00:12:27:17
Mikey Ford
Yeah.

00:12:27:19 – 00:12:45:00
Ellen Bennett
Well, I mean, I’d love to hear a little bit more about like how you started out in technology, see what kind of like higher education did you take in and is, was there. Yeah. Is there any advice that you would give to people potentially looking into doing something in the tech industry?

00:12:45:03 – 00:13:05:09
Mikey Ford
Yeah, for sure. So like I said, I got a dated myself a little bit when I was like the internet came out and that was amazing. But I think it goes all the way back to when I was I was very like four or five. I think I was playing with these ancient games console, you know, it was just like black and white on a screen.

00:13:05:09 – 00:13:27:12
Mikey Ford
And, and I was just completely like, This is magic, you know, like, this is from the future kind of stuff. And, and so ever since then, I’ve always been sort of fascinated with technology. I always knew that I was going to do something with computers. I just never really knew what it was. It was like, Yeah, I’m going to make computer games that, you know, it’s very, very childish of the things, but I always knew I was going to do something with technology.

00:13:27:14 – 00:13:46:09
Mikey Ford
So I did a degree in it and I was writing Java on a UNIX terminal and it was just soul crushing. But then, like I said, that was kind of beginning of the web and I started to play around with web design like very, very archaic web design, you know, early days of Photoshop, early days of flash ActionScript.

00:13:46:09 – 00:14:07:02
Mikey Ford
So it was kind of, you know, using this technology as a creative canvas. And that that’s kind of what got me interested in it. And and that’s kind of always what I pursued. And like I said, I did the master’s interaction Design Electronic Arts, which was about just continuing to improve my skills and my knowledge as the industry progressed and technology change, all those kinds of things.

00:14:07:02 – 00:14:33:11
Mikey Ford
So I think that would be one thing that I would say to to young people is that the rate at which things changes and I guess the rate at which things are diversifying now is is crazy. You know, So it’s it’s kind of being open to change and open to learn and just be continually kind of checking in and saying, you know, am I progressing, Am I learning more skills or just having those fundamental foundational skills?

00:14:33:14 – 00:15:00:21
Mikey Ford
So like as an example, I kind of understand the principles of object orientated programing and scripting languages versus I know how to code in JavaScript or I know how to use react. So it’s is kind of having those foundational skills that are transferable, I guess the ability to critically and communicate are always things that when I, I’ve done a few chats with grads and things like that about how do I get a job, you know, they’re all sort of freaked out, wide eyed about how do I get a job, you know, I don’t need to learn this too.

00:15:00:21 – 00:15:21:00
Mikey Ford
I need to learn this. And I kind of always said to them, is that what I’m looking for is your ability to think critically about how to solve a problem and and have a structure to it. So when you do something, you can kind of go right? I approached it because I could see this use the need or I could see this behavior or I could there was some foundational thing rather than just I learned how to use Photoshop.

00:15:21:02 – 00:15:48:01
Mikey Ford
And I think that for me, because you can teach tools, you know, I watched a YouTube video on the weekend to learn about normalizing databases, which I don’t know why, but it just seemed interesting. But I think there’s so many resources and so many things available now that to learn a tool I don’t think is as critical as the ability to communicate and unpack and structure and plan what you are doing and why you think this isn’t a solution that we should be implementing.

00:15:48:03 – 00:16:08:27
Mikey Ford
Whether that be design, whether that be tech, whether that be, you know, we should do this in VR or should it. This is the mobile app. So I think that’s probably the the main thing that I’ve learned in my long time doing this is that, yeah, it is kind of that I wouldn’t say it’s soft skills, but it’s it’s problem solving in communication.

00:16:08:27 – 00:16:16:22
Mikey Ford
It will get you way, way further I think, than, you know, knowing the ins and outs of a single language or the ins and outs of Figma.

00:16:16:25 – 00:16:47:06
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, but that’s actually something that comes up quite a lot. You know, in my day to day work as a recruiter, it’s it’s very easy sometimes to forget that design, especially especially when you’re face to face with a lot of users communication and connection. That is a skill that you know, is really, really useful when you’re in a creative industry that you need to create by and you need to create that to a lot of different people to do your job.

00:16:47:06 – 00:17:00:00
Ellen Bennett
Just like and it’s kind of ironic that technology has allowed technical skills to be quite easy to come by it. You can just hop on YouTube and learn how to do it, you know, if you figma if you really wanted to.

00:17:00:02 – 00:17:00:25
Mikey Ford
Yeah, for sure.

00:17:00:25 – 00:17:07:25
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, yeah. There’s not as much resources around those like people skills and there’s critical thinking skills.

00:17:07:28 – 00:17:14:22
Mikey Ford
So critical thinking, that’s the word I was looking for in that whole range of critical thinking. Yeah. Unpacking a problem. Yeah.

00:17:14:25 – 00:17:20:28
Ellen Bennett
And yeah. So that it’s, it’s kind of ironic how it’s all kind of almost come full circle.

00:17:21:01 – 00:17:45:07
Mikey Ford
Yeah. And I think one of the things that I in my, my break from working is, is is I’ve learned to be okay with being a generalist where I was kind of hard on myself that maybe if I just focus solely on learning flutter or learning react, that I’d be way more employable and be way more. You know, I could just kind of slot in and it it would be easy for people to hire me.

00:17:45:07 – 00:18:22:04
Mikey Ford
But then I realized that people aren’t hiring me because I can easily slot into a box to do a functional job. They coming to me because I have that broad view of tech, of business, of product of of design, and even sort of user experience to sort of have a longer term view of of what’s going on. And it’s kind of okay to let your curiosity lead you a little bit as well and, and not be too hard on yourself about I just need to focus very much on this because again, like I said, those that those kind of skills, that critical thinking, you know, understanding people, understanding how to communicate the transfer and you

00:18:22:04 – 00:18:31:21
Mikey Ford
can learn the tools. Yeah. It’s not a a death knell to your career because you didn’t learn Java 17 years ago when it was really hot or whatever, you know.

00:18:31:27 – 00:19:04:19
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, yeah. You can definitely bounce back and yeah, yeah, I think there is a lot of value in being a generalist, especially now where, you know, there’s, there’s so many smaller businesses, especially in Australia. Yes. I find as a recruiter any way that comparing the design market here in Australia to what it was in the UK. Yeah, they, we love generalists and tertiary wise, especially early in your career is sometimes I don’t tend to advise that.

00:19:04:22 – 00:19:13:03
Ellen Bennett
So yeah, just like opening yourself up to all the different opportunities is really, really beneficial I think. And it just allows you to soak up so much more knowledge.

00:19:13:05 – 00:19:36:28
Mikey Ford
My career has been driven by curiosity and, and I think just being curious about things and curious about why things worked, why things didn’t work, it is also really valuable. You know, you don’t I think there is a lot of I put a lot of credibility in people that are curious, people who don’t take things at face value and they question why and could this be better or why did that work there too?

00:19:36:29 – 00:19:55:06
Mikey Ford
So, yeah, again, I think that’s probably another thing that I would I don’t know if you can teach curiosity. I don’t know. I think I’ve got a book here that how to be curious. I think maybe you can teach you teach curiosity, but maybe that just that not being satisfied and Question And could this be better or why are we doing this?

00:19:55:08 – 00:20:13:00
Mikey Ford
You know, I think Elon Musk calls it first principle thinking, you know, sort of just because we’ve decided that this is the way it is, like why don’t we go all the way back to the start? The question, you know, the the foundational first principles of things and is there a better way or can we kind of unpack that in a different way?

00:20:13:02 – 00:20:29:05
Ellen Bennett
Is there a particular like workplace or like or a memory that you have of a team or a culture that really fostered that sense of curiosity for you? Because I feel like sometimes people can feel quite intimidated to be always asking why, why, why you write?

00:20:29:06 – 00:21:01:23
Mikey Ford
And to a certain extent there was just a naive ness to me. You know, I’d come from working as a project manager was very structured and, and, you know, timelines. You budgets, that kind of thing too. Moving into a creative role with a bunch of creative people. And so I just actually had just had no idea. And so the way that I was doing things was very unconventional, but they were very excited by the work that I was doing.

00:21:01:23 – 00:21:24:25
Mikey Ford
And so they were open to that. So this is not working on IKEA. They were a smaller company at the time called DTA, but they were acquired later on by IKEA. So I think that was probably what I was most evolving creatively, I think during that period. And it really was just the willingness for other people to go, Yeah, let’s do it.

00:21:24:28 – 00:21:48:02
Mikey Ford
And I remember I pitched this idea to simulate service from the center court at the Australian Open within VR, so you could then try and hit it with a tennis racket and see what it’s like to be a professional tennis player at Remember pitching the idea and then just being silence and everyone’s like, okay, yep. Best practices about designing in VR.

00:21:48:02 – 00:22:11:24
Mikey Ford
And I don’t know, no one’s ever done this before. Like this is literally the test kit from Oculus. No one’s ever done VR designs or anything like that. We’re just making it up. And he’s like, Okay, cool, yeah, let’s do it. So and so I think, you know, and it was wild. Like I was ordering, you know, tens of thousands of dollars worth of VR equipment from the US, just praying that they make it on time and all these kinds of things.

00:22:11:24 – 00:22:39:27
Mikey Ford
And I think that was just and I think if I had known what I know now, I wouldn’t have pitched the idea. It would just been that just all seems too hard that all seems too tough. So I think a little bit of childishness and being naive was really helpful in terms of progressing. And and I think just being open to being vulnerable, I think there needs to be a lot of sort of psychological safety and design and product teams to for people just to go I don’t know or I don’t know how this is going to work.

00:22:39:29 – 00:23:04:26
Mikey Ford
Let’s work together and see if we can come up with the solution versus it being I need to have everything buttoned down and solved and everything before it becomes presented to everyone else. And and I’m still friends with these people today. You know, I’m catching up with my design director next week. So we were in the trenches and we formed a lot of friendships and long term relationships in the trenches doing this work because it was hard and but it was also super rewarding.

00:23:04:26 – 00:23:29:20
Mikey Ford
And and yeah, I think, you know, my boss at the time, he, he gave me a lot of creative freedom without a lot of financial restraint because he saw the potential of what I call it, you know, I was like the chocolate bar at the shopping checkout, you know, like they’re making their money off the big web bills or those kinds of very fundamental things that they were doing.

00:23:29:20 – 00:23:57:05
Mikey Ford
But they saw an opportunity to do something different and use that as a way to bring in new, new business. And I kind of differentiate themselves and mock in terms of how they’re using technology. So I also had a lot of freedom in that space that I wasn’t having to be billable every single hour, but the work that I was doing was actually useful in kind of having different conversations with their clients about what we can do in our capabilities.

00:23:57:05 – 00:24:17:28
Mikey Ford
So yeah, I think that that kind of it’s like, Hey, go be creative. It is not realistic, but here is the spice in the environment for you to be creative and think differently and explore these new things. I think a lot came out of that and you know, a lot of that work is still sort of talked about today amongst the people we worked with.

00:24:18:01 – 00:24:38:17
Ellen Bennett
And it sounds to me like the way that you felt supported was not necessarily the response of No, we can’t do that because of A, B and C, but we don’t know. But let’s find out and giving you the chance to, like, just go for it and then. Yeah, yeah. No, that’s awesome.

00:24:38:19 – 00:24:55:09
Mikey Ford
And I think, you know, in terms of what I learned, how people do improv, like improv, you know, acting is like it’s a yes and it’s never, you know, but it’s yes. And, and I think that with that kind of culture of everyone was excited. It was like, yes, and we could do this and we could do this.

00:24:55:09 – 00:25:08:09
Mikey Ford
And that kind of helped reframe my naive ideas or my naive approach to things. And it kind of helped shape it into something that everyone could grab onto and move forward. And I think that was really helpful.

00:25:08:11 – 00:25:21:02
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, definitely. So Mikey, is there anything that you like to do to, you know, keep up your motivation and your productivity or any like self-care rituals that you like to partake in?

00:25:21:04 – 00:25:39:16
Mikey Ford
Yeah, it’s it’s always, you know, you wish there was more or you wish you a better at them. But I have a six year old daughter who I love more than anything in the world. So in a weird way, you know, if I didn’t have her given me in a structure, I think this this time in my life would be a lot different.

00:25:39:24 – 00:25:54:01
Mikey Ford
It was very funny. I kind of had a little chat with her when I found out I’d been made redundant. I said, I feel like my my job’s finished so I don’t have a job now. So I need to try and find one. She’s like, you don’t have a job. Okay, great. Now you can just spend more time playing with me.

00:25:54:08 – 00:26:17:08
Mikey Ford
And I was like, But what an amazing reframe of something that was just a really. Yeah, it was. And it was. I was like, Great, amazing. I’m just going to spend time with you. And so so let me sort of talk about, you know, my personal, you know, productivity or routine. It’s sort of, you know, making time to spend with her and kind of focusing on that.

00:26:17:11 – 00:26:24:07
Mikey Ford
And, you know, she’s an age where she still thinks I’m amazing. I know she’s going to be a teenager and just be like, I told you, so embarrassing, but I’ll.

00:26:24:10 – 00:26:25:28
Ellen Bennett
Take advantage of this while. Yes.

00:26:25:28 – 00:26:43:05
Mikey Ford
I just don’t take advantage of that now and again, spending time with my wife and there’s been talk my daughter. And so that’s kind of really just one thing that I have tried to reframe because, you know, when you’re doing the 9 to 5, you do end up you get up, get everyone ready, and then you rush to work and then you get home and you’re tired and you make dinner, then put everyone to bed, you know.

00:26:43:06 – 00:27:11:18
Mikey Ford
So that’s one thing that I want to hold on to when I get back into more full time work is because some of these just, you know, maybe just taking time to walk the dog, I think is also really important. Just get out in nature and walk around. So I guess I don’t have any journaling or meditation or anything like that, but I think it’s just about, again, you know, resetting and reframing what is important and making sure that you have the time, the space to use that to recharge you and re-energize you before, you know, diving into work and.

00:27:11:20 – 00:27:39:10
Ellen Bennett
Whatever, whatever’s like meaningful for you. However you find those like little moments to rest. And for some people that’s like going on a 30 mile jog and for other people that’s just like reading a good book. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think, however it shows up for you is it’s great that, you know, Ophelia was able to like reshape how you were looking at your situation and that’s that just speaks to like a kid’s intelligence, right?

00:27:39:10 – 00:27:43:22
Ellen Bennett
Like, okay, your time is free now. We can do fun stuff. Yeah.

00:27:43:25 – 00:28:06:07
Mikey Ford
Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, it’s also not being hard on myself that I’m not being more productive. I think there’s almost like a plague of productivity. Yeah. Where you always have to be efficient and delivering and all this kind of thing where I actually just, you know, just getting a coffee in the morning and sitting in the sun like there’s just something so incredible about that.

00:28:06:09 – 00:28:25:27
Mikey Ford
Yeah, I think it’s just really sort of helping reshape and reframe what is important. And I think what energizes me and what I want to pursue versus this kind of external expectation that, you know, that hustle grind culture or whatever that kind of defines, this is what you should be doing by the time you age 25 or you’re failing, you know?

00:28:25:27 – 00:28:26:24
Mikey Ford
So yeah.

00:28:26:26 – 00:28:33:29
Ellen Bennett
It’s just not realistic anymore. Like, no, yeah, I totally, I totally agree that hustle culture just makes me cringe sometimes. I’m like.

00:28:34:03 – 00:28:40:03
Mikey Ford
Yeah, just like I get up and I have an ice bath at 4 a.m. and I’m just not doing any of that.

00:28:40:05 – 00:29:00:25
Ellen Bennett
Hildur Not for me. And so I’m like, I know that we chatted a little bit about, you know, the current situation and how that’s been challenging for you and how you’ve gotten through that. But I’m curious to hear if you have any other speed bumps that you face throughout your career and how have they shaped where you’re at at the moment?

00:29:00:27 – 00:29:26:11
Mikey Ford
I think one of the big challenges that I’ve always had is being overly self critical. And, you know, when you sort of reflect back on being in situations where things weren’t defined well or, you know, roles weren’t defined well or even bracelet defined well as really poor communication, I would often internalize that dysfunction as failure on my behalf.

00:29:26:11 – 00:29:52:01
Mikey Ford
Like, I should have known that that’s I should have read that person’s mind or I should have you know, I should have known that that was going to happen. And or, you know, when something doesn’t go well, regardless of my contribution or what it was like a group contribution or a business wide contribution, I would think that it was my fault, that it wasn’t a success or an even when things were even when things were a success, I’d still think that I could have done this better.

00:29:52:01 – 00:30:18:28
Mikey Ford
I could have know. So. So for me, I started to, rather than internalize that conversation and say, you should have known, you should have done this sort of overanalyzing. I’m thinking I started to be, I guess, more open in my conversation and more open in my communication with people sort of saying, Hey, I’m feeling this way. This feels, you know, or or saying, this is what I’m going to do.

00:30:18:29 – 00:30:43:06
Mikey Ford
Do you have any feedback before I progress? You know, so it’s starting to change that conversation from internalizing the dysfunction, internalizing that and taking that as failure. But more this is what’s happening. Is this the way you feel? Okay, cool. I feel like that too. How can we work together to solve that problem? And I think that was probably the biggest thing I’ve learned.

00:30:43:13 – 00:31:05:13
Mikey Ford
And I carried that for years and years and years. It took me a really long time to identify that and kind of try and find ways to to manage that a bit differently. But the more I started to talk to other people about this doesn’t feel right. This feels like I’m confused, this feels ambiguous, you know, what is the direction of this?

00:31:05:16 – 00:31:30:05
Mikey Ford
The more other people. Yeah, I feel that way too. Let’s work together and try and find a solution and try to, you know, socialize that solution or socialize is what people want. And so, yeah, I think that was probably the biggest, biggest change in mindset change I think. And overcoming that as overcome the thousands of probably self-imposed hurdles I kind of created for myself in my career, which know if I could go back, I’d probably be like, It’s okay.

00:31:30:05 – 00:31:37:14
Mikey Ford
Like it’s not your fault. It’s, you know, you just this is the imperfect ness of communication, you know? So.

00:31:37:16 – 00:32:07:16
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, I think that’s you hit the nail on the head there. I feel like so many feelings of inadequacy and the imposter syndrome. Where does it come down a lot to? Just like lack of communication or communication at landing? How the speaker wants it to land. And yeah, I think that’s like some really great advice to for I think anyone can take on with their in a workplace is if doesn’t there’s absolutely no harm in asking a follow up question and being like yeah are you sure or how does that happen.

00:32:07:16 – 00:32:13:14
Ellen Bennett
Like what’s the, what’s the point of this? What the goal of this decision? Yeah, just to get a bit more clarity.

00:32:13:17 – 00:32:26:22
Mikey Ford
You know, because there’s a tendency to be like complaining and negative, like, this doesn’t make any sense or this is, this doesn’t I don’t know what to do here. Like, you’re not being clear, you know that. Or you could be like, okay, so where are we going with this stuff? What is our objective? You know, like what?

00:32:26:24 – 00:32:48:06
Mikey Ford
How like empower me with knowledge or direction or strategy to go, Yeah, we need to hit this target. So. Right. This is what I’m going to do to hit that target. Are you cool with that? Let’s move forward. So you’re right in that even in having that conversation, there’s still a way to have that conversation where it’s people are more receptive to that versus a thing coming across as negative.

00:32:48:08 – 00:32:54:26
Ellen Bennett
Yeah. Yeah. No, that’s yeah, yeah. So many light bulb moments during this slide.

00:32:54:28 – 00:33:14:01
Mikey Ford
And just, just as a disclaimer, like, you know, exclamation point in terms of my apply, I didn’t do this perfectly. I still struggle with this on a daily basis. It’s hard for me to be like, my God, this is all so tough and I just don’t want to do this anymore. But being like trying to be live up to what I’ve just said everyone else should do.

00:33:14:01 – 00:33:17:15
Mikey Ford
So that’s my little disclaimer to throw in there as well.

00:33:17:17 – 00:33:28:15
Ellen Bennett
All right. Thank you for mentioning that, because it is it is hot. And like a lot of the conversations that I have on the podcast are, you know, advice that comes from a place of learning.

00:33:28:17 – 00:33:29:08
Mikey Ford
Yeah.

00:33:29:11 – 00:33:38:13
Ellen Bennett
And so, yes, you do have to and sometimes you don’t really understand a lesson until you are taught it the hard way.

00:33:38:13 – 00:33:40:02
Mikey Ford
So yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:40:02 – 00:33:46:12
Ellen Bennett
It’s all well and good to say all this, but yeah, it definitely does land a little bit easier if you have that context around it.

00:33:46:14 – 00:33:51:23
Mikey Ford
Yeah, it’s Instagram versus reality. Like my life on social media looks amazing, but you know, anyway.

00:33:51:26 – 00:34:25:01
Ellen Bennett
Yes, totally get it. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks so much for being like super transparent and vulnerable with like the lessons that you’ve learned through those challenges as well because you’re at it, it is really hard to be vulnerable and be super upfront with, you know, potentially some things that you have gone through in the past, but great too. It’s great to hear your learnings as well, because that’s that’s why this podcast is here is to help people who, you know, may not have to go through some of the icky bits that you have.

00:34:25:01 – 00:34:28:10
Ellen Bennett
And yeah, that’s great. Thank you for that.

00:34:28:13 – 00:34:46:14
Mikey Ford
And I think that really is what motivates me is like even if other people don’t have to go through that, then I’m happy to be the vulnerable person. This particular like when I’m so that’s why I want to talk about the redundancy and just talking about some of the struggles I had because it’s it’s terrible. You know, you don’t want other people to go through that.

00:34:46:14 – 00:34:52:09
Mikey Ford
So if they can learn from where I’ve been, then yeah, that’d be amazing.

00:34:52:11 – 00:35:05:05
Ellen Bennett
That’s great. And I mean, obviously now that you get more time to spend with Ophelia and, and George, is there anything that takes up your spare time day to day?

00:35:05:08 – 00:35:12:14
Mikey Ford
Do you know what? I could just watch a movie from beginning to end.

00:35:12:16 – 00:35:13:14
Ellen Bennett
Luxury.

00:35:13:17 – 00:35:42:12
Mikey Ford
Yeah. So I kind of had, you know, whenever I put a movie on, it’ll take me probably three watches to get through a whole movie. So to be interrupted by someone getting out of bed or someone needing a water, or I can watch a movie or I can play some Xbox, you know. So just those kinds of things that I again, like to sort of get back to those simple things about, you know, just taking time to just have some time to yourself and just focus on the things that you did.

00:35:42:12 – 00:36:05:18
Mikey Ford
And so, you know, playing games, it’s it’s a big was a big thing for me. And I’ve since becoming a dad and getting married, you have less time. So I think those things have just come back to a few things that brought me joy and, you know, just also to sort of getting out and going to galleries and and those kinds of things, going to gigs, just taking a bit of culture, which yes, I think again, also trying to find a job.

00:36:05:18 – 00:36:14:02
Mikey Ford
So I try to do something for myself in the morning and then find a job in the afternoon. But yeah, so that’s kind of what’s making me busy and thing.

00:36:14:04 – 00:36:17:15
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, it sounds like you’re getting some well-needed rest.

00:36:17:17 – 00:36:23:22
Mikey Ford
Yeah. Weirdly, after so many years of just grinding it out. But yeah, it’s been really amazing.

00:36:23:28 – 00:36:43:16
Ellen Bennett
You know, that’s great. And I love to ask people as well, do you have any, like podcasts or books or any kind of content that you consume generally that you know, really like? It doesn’t even have to be design or creative? Yeah. Did like, is there anything that you that you like to listen to?

00:36:43:19 – 00:37:04:07
Mikey Ford
So there is one podcast called The Junkies, so it’s by Dave Hughes and Katie Flanagan. So I just review junk food and it’s just so frivolous and silly, you know, like, which do you like better Mars Bars and Milky Way? Like, I don’t know if that’s exactly what they did, but they or they might review all the different types of salt vinegar chips as the best salt.

00:37:04:07 – 00:37:35:19
Mikey Ford
VEGA chip. And it’s just again, when I’m walking walking George is one that’s kind of my podcast time. So yeah, because I used to run a soda review blog when I was younger. So I think that kind of I just, I just love just trying crazy sodas or them trying crazy candies or chips and just reviewing it like it’s a really sophisticated, you know, they should have three Michelin stars or something like that from a, I guess, tech design point of view, 99% invisible.

00:37:35:19 – 00:37:57:21
Mikey Ford
It’s been around for years and years and years. I’m sure other people have mentioned it. It’s just so high quality. And yeah, they always find such unique, interesting things to talk about. And yeah, I think that’s kind of, you know, even to some of the things I talked about of shaped some of the ideas and concepts that I’ve kind of move forward and so yeah, I think that’s kind of like I said, you know, I don’t have a great deal of so I don’t have a great deal of time.

00:37:57:21 – 00:38:24:17
Mikey Ford
It’s more than just the capacity and mental capacity to focus on things like that and take it in. So yeah, those are probably the two that I really enjoy that I listen to most when I walk the dog. So yeah, I think that’s pretty much what guys in terms of books and things, I always sort of punish myself and always sort of read nonfiction design books, you know, like the design of everyday things or, you know, sort of functional work related books, brand UX research or.

00:38:24:19 – 00:38:44:23
Mikey Ford
Teresa Torres, what’s her thing? Continuous improvement. That would be my big recommendation. That kind of changed my thinking about innovation and product as well. So that was given to me by my previous manager. And yeah, love that. I love that book. So unless it’s sort of dystopian sci fi, it’s very functional design, practical relating to work.

00:38:44:25 – 00:39:10:05
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, yeah. Love that. Yeah, I think those are the I find that you are actually a bit of a rarity. Usually when I ask that question, some people are either, you know, they can list ten, 15 podcasts that they listen to and it’s like all design related and all really highbrow or other people are complete opposite and they don’t like to consume anything kind of like work related on their off hours.

00:39:10:08 – 00:39:13:10
Ellen Bennett
You’re in the middle there, which is, which is interesting.

00:39:13:12 – 00:39:35:14
Mikey Ford
I guess it sort of goes to that, you know, growing and always feeling that you’re because there’s different mindsets and different views and how they can influence you I think is important. So but I think walking the dog is kind of chill out time for me. And so, yeah, I don’t want to be too bombarded with best practices in go to market product design strategy or anything like that.

00:39:35:14 – 00:39:36:15
Mikey Ford
Yeah.

00:39:36:17 – 00:39:38:00
Ellen Bennett
It’s not the time of place.

00:39:38:02 – 00:39:38:13
Mikey Ford
No.

00:39:38:18 – 00:39:49:01
Ellen Bennett
Yeah. Well I guess with that being said, is there any like have you had any mentors throughout your career or like have any business leaders that have been really influential on you?

00:39:49:03 – 00:40:27:07
Mikey Ford
This make me sound I’m a little lost puppy, but I think it’s more that there’s been leaders or managers that cared about me and they cared about my development and invested time into me. Yeah. So shout out to Sam Yee, who was my previous manager at Aura, and and Jason Massaro, who was my manager at Data Now A.K.A like so and again, still friends with them, still talk to them on a regular basis because you know, I guess they weren’t mentors, but I think it’s always good to have a manager who can see external your strengths and weaknesses and, and be invested in creating an environment and invested in helping you grow to be better

00:40:27:07 – 00:40:58:22
Mikey Ford
and capitalize on those things that your great your strengths, but also helping. What am I saying? You know, helping you to give you structure and training or things to sort of mitigate those weaknesses or things you need to develop. And I think, you know, I’ve never had like a formal mentor. We sit down and talk about it, but I’ve just I think those those two really will be with me forever because they actively cared about my development versus, you know, managing me and managing my productivity.

00:40:58:24 – 00:41:28:13
Mikey Ford
I guess in terms of are people I really like as designers and things like that. But in terms of, you know, they’re more just like I like their philosophy, you know, the Rams is probably the one for me. I really sort of connect with his design philosophy, you know, less but better. I think it’s even though my my, my LinkedIn profile, I think, you know, so they’re probably the three people that I’ve mentioned in terms of just had a real impact on my career, My design technology career.

00:41:28:14 – 00:41:29:12
Mikey Ford
Yeah.

00:41:29:14 – 00:41:58:14
Ellen Bennett
Yeah. That’s and that’s the thing with like mentorship. It doesn’t really have to be a super formal relationship. It could be, you know, you watch their content on Instagram and they have for like it, it can be something super casual or it can be, you know, a manager and an employee kind of relationship to this. Yeah. So yeah, that’s great that, you know, a good manager can really have such a massive impact on your career and how you friends and.

00:41:58:19 – 00:42:12:00
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No that’s great. And I love, I love when people do a little shout out to managers, you know, and Mikey, I like to finish the podcast on one of my favorite questions.

00:42:12:03 – 00:42:12:21
Mikey Ford
Yeah.

00:42:12:23 – 00:42:19:21
Ellen Bennett
So if you could go and give your younger self some career advice, what would that be?

00:42:19:23 – 00:42:43:15
Mikey Ford
man. I think would probably go back to that, that speedbump conversation that we had, which is just because it doesn’t work, it’s not working, doesn’t mean it’s your fault. You know, like people were still like you’re the project doesn’t make budget or make timelines, you know like so yeah I think that kind of hindered me a lot in my twenties and is sort of that kind of thinking.

00:42:43:18 – 00:43:07:16
Mikey Ford
I worked very, very hard and I, I had a lot of success and things like that, but it came at a big cost. And so I think that’s probably what I would say. I’ll probably also say don’t spend so much money at the pub like that, maybe save some, maybe maybe have a house deposit. But anyway, I think I enjoyed my time and I traveled around the world and things like that, but it’s kind of the flip side, you know, now I’m older.

00:43:07:16 – 00:43:12:29
Mikey Ford
I’m like, maybe I should have just tried to buy one of these apartments in Redfern when I was super cheap. It was a.

00:43:13:01 – 00:43:14:09
Ellen Bennett
2020 Answer Yeah.

00:43:14:09 – 00:43:29:29
Mikey Ford
Exactly. But I think I think mostly it’s the, it’s that, you know, we talked about the speed bump is just because it’s not working doesn’t mean it’s your fault and it don’t internally is that that dysfunction or that the imperfect communication.

00:43:30:01 – 00:43:37:05
Ellen Bennett
Yeah I totally agree. I think one of the most influential things that I’ve heard is you are not your work.

00:43:37:07 – 00:43:37:17
Mikey Ford
Yes.

00:43:37:21 – 00:44:04:15
Ellen Bennett
Your job shouldn’t define you. And when you hear that when when I heard that when I was younger and I was like, yeah, I didn’t really resonate with me because I didn’t really know how that showed up. But sounds it sounds like to me that that’s kind of what your advice would be as well, like kind of separate yourself from your achievements or your failures and just do, do, do good work and don’t go to the pub as much.

00:44:04:17 – 00:44:11:05
Mikey Ford
Well, to go to the pub, but maybe save some of your money, not.

00:44:11:08 – 00:44:13:18
Ellen Bennett
Just get three years instead of four.

00:44:13:20 – 00:44:18:20
Mikey Ford
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just put that into the long term savings. Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:18:22 – 00:44:21:14
Ellen Bennett
Well, on that note, thank you so much for joining us.

00:44:21:17 – 00:44:23:05
Mikey Ford
This is an amazing. I had a really great time.

00:44:23:05 – 00:44:37:22
Ellen Bennett
Yeah, me too. Me too. And I really appreciate your time and and for being so open about your experience. I feel like it will land with so many people and so many people. Yeah. So. Yeah. Thank you so much again, Lucky.

00:44:37:24 – 00:44:40:03
Mikey Ford
No worries. All right. It’s lovely talking to you.